Side quests - mastering immersion

We have not received permission from VekoKrava to share the quoted post.

I don't agree that this has anything to do with what makes quests, particularly sidequests, immersive.

I have lots of opinions on exactly how that's done, the main thing is that so far, Ashes' writers are doing really good work and I just want them to keep going.

I could write essays and essays of praise on the tiny nuances that make good quest writing, almost all of which I am already seeing in the world. If they can keep up this quality, especially if they have the PRINCIPLES of it to show/teach to everyone on staff instead of just relying on a few writers with the skills...

I don't think 'indicators over someone's head' are going to matter at all. It's the dialogue itself that matters.

We have not received permission from VekoKrava to share the quoted post.

Sorry, but I disagree with this too. I'm sure some people like it, and it IS a core component of a 'quest' because if you didn't need to at least look around, it probably wasn't a 'quest' just a little 'task' or a 'story beat'.

But I don't believe that a lack of quest indicators is even 'realistic', far less 'helps with patience'. But you and I already disagree on 'what causes changes in player behaviours' in other ways too, so I accept your perspective, this is just technically 'feedback for Intrepid'.

You're doing phenomenally guys, please keep it up.

We have not received permission from VekoKrava to share the quoted post.

I am very familiar with Skyrim.

I study MMORPG and RPG quest writing, among other things. I study them a LOT.

Based on my years of studying I disagree with you, even about what the pointers over heads system does.

I don't believe it influences the behaviours of the type of player that cares about quests to begin with. I understand that it seems weird that someone could have the same experiences and even thought processes/wishes as you do, and come to the exact opposite conclusion, but generally, you should assume that I do this a LOT.

For quite a lot of people the absence of markers would be much more of a pain than an "immersive tool". They'll just groan and go look up "best quests to do in Ashes" and follow the guides that will inevitably get made, exactly because the game won't have said markers.

And those who care a lot about quests, usually care more about the contents and how they're presented, as Azherae has already pointed out. And from the very few quests from alpha1 that I've seen, Intrepid have indeed done quite well already.

And the tiny fraction of the playerbase that care enough about immersion to get annoyed by quest markers are, well, just that - tiny.

And as a personal opinion, I'd probably prefer soft markers (literally what's planned right now) with then no indicators of what to do, other than the quest text itself. From the few hours of wow classic that I've played, I loved to read the quest text and, even more, loved the fact that I had to pay attention to that text or just reference it several times to figure out what I needed to do or where I needed to go. To me that seems way more immersive than most other games I've played, and classic did have exclamation points above npcs iirc.

And as the direct mirror to that, all of my friends, who dragged me into wow in the first place, used a fucking addon to completely sidestep this mechanic. Their addon gave them directions and map markers. And they were all quite annoyed at me for playing wow w/o those addons.

I bet Ashes will have the exact same situation. Some players will immerse themselves, while others will find a 3rd party tool to streamline the experience as much as possible.

We have not received permission from VekoKrava to share the quoted post.

Again, are you SURE that's not just because back then you didn't know all the people that skipped the stuff? Or even simpler, those people didn't try to play MMOs then because gaming as an industry was much smaller?

There are many reasons why Ashes might get the same sort of playerbase. There are games like this, they're just not usually Triple A games so we hear about them less, and MMOs fall off the radar once their playerbase drops, even if it 'drops to numbers that used to be normal' way back then.

There are 820 people playing Mortal Online 2 right now, supposedly, and 1,135 in Neverwinter (idk if there is a server selection on PC for that game, never checked).

What do you expect the reaction to those numbers, to be? In fact, what reaction do they cause YOU to have?

We have not received permission from VekoKrava to share the quoted post.

That's possibly true, depending on your perspective.

The mainstream, by nature, does not understand things as much as a dedicated fan does, and doesn't care as much.

But that doesn't meant the quality of the product itself has to be lower, you can still make a good game with great quests that you know people will skip, and just make the great quests for all the people who don't skip them and really care.

Single player games just have a massive advantage in why their quests feel better and carry stronger immersion. It takes a lot more skill and more importantly understanding of quest writing and narrative impulse, to make an MMO that does it, because the requirement you have to reach is higher when other players can get involved.

But since Ashes' writers seem to have that understanding, you can probably expect it to be as immersive as Skyrim, or at least close (considering that they have to clear a higher bar, but maybe for you they don't even have to do that).

We have not received permission from VekoKrava to share the quoted post.

I find this message just a bit ironic, considering your love for WoW. That shit was beyond mainstream, even back in vanilla. It literally ate up other mmos' playerbases, because it was so damn mainstream that everyone wanted to play it.

Now I agree that WoW is trash but I doubt that you'd agree with me on that statement, while you say that mainstream always sucks.

We have not received permission from VekoKrava to share the quoted post.

Replayability in MMOs, particularly related to questing, is related to a pretty common (but hard to execute) principle, and while hidden quest markers DO trigger the feeling, again, it's that MMOs don't have the luxury of how single player games do it.

A single player game can create an EXPECTATION that there are quests for most NPCs. They can make you the hero, and being the automatic hero allows them to use a literary trick. They can give everyone you meet a problem for YOU PERSONALLY to solve based on the setting.

MMOs are LESS immersive when they do this unless they do it with some very high-level writing/characterization techniques. However, having a quest that you only 'notice when you finally trigger it from an NPC you've been around before' is a cheap way to get the same EFFECT but for a REGION and not for a character.

The setting of Ashes is so good, and the quests I've seen so far are so well-fitted, that they are managing to do it properly without having to hope that you only encounter the quest later, so the effect is STRONGER and even better as a result. But it's also not very compatible with 'no quest markers'. When this is done correctly, having quest markers is a GOOD thing.