Concerns with in game economy

I prefer full item destruction on failed OE, but people were so damn butthurt about this mechanic that I doubt Intrepid sticks with it. Durability loss would be fine as a replacement I guess.

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It is unlikely that BDO is the culprit in the case James is talking about.

BDO enchanting is always safer/easier than L2. I've had to research this extensively while 'arguing' with James and NiKr.

I don't doubt that some games out there have made the people James is talking about have a stronger dislike for OE, but BDO is not it (in the sense that if people don't like BDO's system, they are not going to like L2's better).

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Fair enough.

Either James is right and there is some game out there that has a worse system than L2 and that causes everyone to have that reaction, or James is wrong and just 'believes that more people would be okay with the L2 system'.

I guess we'll know in 5-6 months if TL launches with OE on gear.

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It's quite vague. It says that it has "destruction" of gear, but then the quote for it implies that the item just kinda goes to 0 durability or smth like that, so you keep the item instead of it completely disappearing.

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No, that's the point. The initial stance is what I described. We're not 100% sure that items completely disappear if you fail an OE.

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I think it was never 'actual item destruction', but honestly I tend not to think about it or remember the specifics of that one since it is subject to change in specific ways AND the initial concept is a little unclear (something about disabling it, maybe you could still repair it, etc). TL will release sooner, so we'll know then.

BDO does have Destruction for Jewelry, yes, but the Jewelry odds are apparently slightly better than the L2 ones (this is hard to verify because of the massive number of changes and private servers) and you can prevent it (I assume you can do this in L2 also but can't be sure of that either).

Note that I don't agree with James' opinion here, and I'd go parse the thread in question to check, but it's subjective enough that I really doubt anyone would care. People should believe whatever they like about subjective things of this nature (whether or not other people would like something), I feel.

The only 'fact' I can provide (and even that is based only on what I can find) is that BDO isn't the game that would make people hate OE, because BDO's OE is nicer than L2's.

Azherae wrote: »

BDO does have Destruction for Jewelry, yes, but the Jewelry odds are apparently slightly better than the L2 ones (this is hard to verify because of the massive number of changes and private servers) and you can prevent it (I assume you can do this in L2 also but can't be sure of that either).

Iirc weapons was 66% and armor/jewelry was 55%? It's been years since I've gone into those kinds of details about L2 and I've been actively trying to remove my L2 details memories from my brain all these past years.

And yeah, you had special scrolls that would keep the item but remove the enchantment lvl. And then later on, in order to boost the fucking p2w even fucking more, NFucksoft introduced items that would keep the enchant lvls on fails. And they added +% items and even fucking +1-3 random scrolls, so you could get a +3 enchant instead of a +1 on the same chance (which iirc could be either protected or increased).

But that later shit is usually disregarded by the main L2 crowd, cause it came in the later later updates.

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L2 had Epic Jewelry that dropped in single instances (with not even a 100% from certain bosses) from bosses that ranged from 36h respawns to 11-day ones. People usually didn't OE those, even though it made them weaker against the stronger mages on the server. You'd only start OEing them when your guild was the only one farming the boss and your main stack of strongest players already had a piece.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

BDO does have Destruction for Jewelry, yes, but the Jewelry odds are apparently slightly better than the L2 ones (this is hard to verify because of the massive number of changes and private servers) and you can prevent it (I assume you can do this in L2 also but can't be sure of that either).

Iirc weapons was 66% and armor/jewelry was 55%? It's been years since I've gone into those kinds of details about L2 and I've been actively trying to remove my L2 details memories from my brain all these past years.

And yeah, you had special scrolls that would keep the item but remove the enchantment lvl. And then later on, in order to boost the fucking p2w even fucking more, NFucksoft introduced items that would keep the enchant lvls on fails. And they added +% items and even fucking +1-3 random scrolls, so you could get a +3 enchant instead of a +1 on the same chance (which iirc could be either protected or increased).

But that later shit is usually disregarded by the main L2 crowd, cause it came in the later later updates.

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L2 had Epic Jewelry that dropped in single instances (with not even a 100% from certain bosses) from bosses that ranged from 36h respawns to 11-day ones. People usually didn't OE those, even though it made them weaker against the stronger mages on the server. You'd only start OEing them when your guild was the only one farming the boss and your main stack of strongest players already had a piece.

The chances lower as you get higher, as BDO's do, it's just presented differently because in L2 you lose the item and in BDO you don't. Statistically, L2 is more frustrating (raw numbers, not opinion) based on everything I can find.

You can look into it a ton, or trust my information, either way:

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Is the response. The only reason this comes up is because James said that people's opinions would be different if they played L2 instead of 'whatever game they played'.

That random game just ain't BDO. BDO players would not look at L2's system and go 'oh that looks much better'. My personal reaction was 'wait it's WORSE? They can't be serious... they're serious lol'.

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I'm 95% sure that even if Ashes did in fact have full destruction before - it no longer does. It'd have to be parsed, but from what I remember of the thread, probably around 70-80% of the posters there HATED destruction. Might've been even more, but that's might just be my bias speaking, cause every time I'd see one of those posts this'd be me

NiKr wrote: »

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I'm 95% sure that even if Ashes did in fact have full destruction before - it no longer does. It'd have to be parsed, but from what I remember of the thread, probably around 70-80% of the posters there HATED destruction. Might've been even more, but that's might just be my bias speaking, cause every time I'd see one of those posts this'd be me

84% as of my offhand recollection of non-targeted parse (sentiment only).

Azherae wrote: »

84% as of my offhand recollection of non-targeted parse (sentiment only).

So my bias might've not been as bad at skewing my assumptions. Nice

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I think this is the latest quote on the topic. It seems that Steven leans towards the L2 system, while the team is probably pushing back by "ironing out some flows"

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Oh, then um... you're wrong.

No one's going to change their opinion based on seeing L2's system if they come from BDO's system because L2's system is way more frustrating.

They would just hate it more.

So yes, all those people absolutely hate even the form of OE that you're saying is fine. It's just a really hated mechanic.

But this is based on the info I found, which implies that it is NOT actually consistently 66% chance across all those, so I'd have to know 'at what point that changed' or 'what server you played on', or whatever else.

As I understand it, you have 66% chance that you succeed, but 33% chance that the item is DESTROYED, (ignore options to mitigate this because BDO has many).

Statistical distribution based on these indicate that L2 is worse. It might be MISLEADING in terms of the emotions it causes, but it's worse.

I welcome more information on it, but please note that I'm likely to be skeptical that L2 is particularly more forgiving. I've seen threads of people complaining about 'seeing three +16s in one day' as if the person achieving this was outright cheating. Maybe, once again, another private server.

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The safe level came from L2 too, so the discussion of destruction was always about OE, the O meaning going over that safe lvl.

And that was mainly one of my issues with the protesters. Even though there was always a lvl of safe improvement for you weapon, people still vehemently protested the destruction, as if they were made to OE all of their stuff.

And I think that particular thing does come directly from BDO, cause iirc your "gear score" there is one of the main factors of who kills and who dies. That wasn't really the case in L2. Or at least not to the extent of what I've heard from BDO. Though maybe I've just heard the very vocal minority who got obliterated by a better skilled player rather than a player that simply had an enchantment lvl one point higher.

The QuickNote as to what I'm basing my very 'closed minded' stance on. IF every enchant has the chance of destroying the item after +3, then it takes 12 risky enchants to get to +16.

0.66^12 = 0.006831675

Anything beyond this will get into the weeds on 'which ways to get around the RNG exist in the two games'.

But BDO players hate 'having to jump through hoops to get around the RNG', so the result would be the same.