Which games have real living worlds?

Well, that was certainly a list.

But games aren't like that because nearly everything on that list falls into three categories.

1. Annoys players and limits gameplay for those who don't get into the game at specific timings, leading to the game being less popular.
2. Is a manipulable system that certain types of player just destroy or lock into a static state anyway (could be good or bad but it happens)
3. Is in FFXI/some older game and just not bothered with in newer ones.

We have not received permission from Arya_Yeshe to share the quoted post.

I'm saying the opposite. This has been done before, and part of the reason devs stopped was related to those same three points:

1. People complained about it way more than they seemed to like it (even if some people really appreciated it, for example, NPC vendors having hours where they just... go home)
2. People broke it and locked it into a state where the dynamism stopped mattering other than a maintenance cost that someone has to put their effort into (World Buffs anyone?)
3. Has been done before.

Idk, I just couldn't think of a different way to interact with the post, but I wanted to. I'd basically turn it into a forum game of 'MMO History' or something. Have everyone come in and give examples of a game that did something and how it turned out, maybe.

Seems like a waste to make such a detailed post and then get a response less than that, so y'know, I figured I did actually have something I could say, so I did.

I agree that MMOs are like that, but I just don't find that players interact a lot with those things unless forced and many of them complain all the way. Even BDO started out with all that and then just got ignored and gamed to hell until (I speculate) the RPG devs got jaded and left, it got 'remastered' and everything got 'streamlined' and they still have that tendency to this day. Maybe they're just fools who think too short term or focus entirely on Metrics.

But I'll set up/play your 'MMO History' game if you want.

I mean, wasn't this literally the biggest example for devs to not bother with any system like that because it's wasted devtime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNxJVTJleE

Ultima was the biggest mmo of its time and definitely pushed the genre forward, but this situation definitely taught many devs that players will never play how you want them to.

We have not received permission from Arya_Yeshe to share the quoted post.

Game on then. Good timing.

Squad incoming. Let's have some fun with it, ya?

13:10 < GM> 1d64
13:10 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 44

there's no real tracking of your actions around the world and the world doesn't adapt accordingly

(oh boy, this is a hard one to start with, huh, can I just cite Elite and FFXI and not actually explain either the BGS or the world map territory stuff - Conquest, Campaign, Besieged, etc?)

We have not received permission from Arya_Yeshe to share the quoted post.

No prob then! I'm sure my friends will enjoy this 'game'.

The problem is that obviously, Living World systems, even rudimentary ones, take really really long to explain, so for now you might get some shorter answers.

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

Okay

We have not received permission from Arya_Yeshe to share the quoted post.

This happens in FFXI. Not for normal mobs that wouldn't have access to 'gear' in the first place, but the ones that would actually have access to proper supplies and armorers do.

In FFXI's Campaign, the enemy armies do continuously upgrade their gear and supplies, and players have to do special missions to affect both their own army's resources (supplies, defenses, etc), and those of the opposing NPC armies. This even extends to things like training and military intelligence. If nobody bothers to do anything about it, the enemies will be stronger, and more coordinated, and you're going to lose ground.

In FFXI's Besieged, the enemies assaulting the city spend time training and gearing up. At "level 1", they're absolute pushovers. But then they go home, train more, gear up more, and come back with better numbers and stronger soldiers. This happens a lot of times before they finally hit full power.

So... yeah. Devs do this.

<GM> 1d64
<&Dice> GM, 1d64: 21

"npcs have no life, they never go visit their family elsewhere, they have nothing to do except stand there and wait for you"

The problem with this one is that players often find needing to track down an NPC who's wandered off somewhere to be frustrating and tedious. Imagine not being able to complete a quest because the NPC you need to talk to is in another city, or needing to wait an hour to buy an item you need because a merchant is asleep.

Having said that, FFXI did do something like this. There are NPC freelancers you can hire to fight in campaign battles, who you have to find under various different conditions.

1d64: 53
"mobs and npcs will never hire players to kill another player, they never want revenge"

Missions in Elite will randomly spawn assassins/pirates from an enemy of the faction you are doing the mission for. Additionally if you drop below a certain reputation level with a faction (npc factions and player factions both have npc actors) by either killing civilians, killing their own pirates, or doing other covert actions that negatively effect their security or economy all of their npc faction pirates and security guards will attack you on sight/scan

We have not received permission from Arya_Yeshe to share the quoted post.

This will make the crowd that makes (or references!) wikis for the game very upset, especially if the variable that changes the quest rewards is obscured or non-obvious. The level of envy between two players who seemed to put in the same amount of work but got completely different rewards creates a big mess that distracts players from enjoying the game; instead, they'll be trying to dissect a mechanic for an NPC.

13:36 < GM> 1d64
13:36 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 35

We have not received permission from Arya_Yeshe to share the quoted post.

Discounting all the other hardcoded stuff like the Elite Factions and FFXI Campaign dynamics, I'm anecdotally completely certain that there is/was a hidden stat on the Campaign Generals in FFXI that makes them attack players who made them fail skirmishes in previous battles.

So I have an 'arch-enemy' in that game on the battlefield who, if any of her soldiers sees me within a certain range of the objective, will ignore all other objectives and run straight to attack ME.

This is actually really useful because I'm usually using a movespeed kiting build and she's not great at dealing with that, but it's also devastating when I'm on healer or think she's already fallen and out of position and she just comes and whomps me.

Good fun.

The more often I 'lead' our side to defeat her, the more easily this happens. Probably a hidden stat on people's characters.

As noted, Elite is basically the same, just with less 'static or consistent' enemy pirates/NPCs. But you can be contracted to be killed while on a quest and followed halfway across civilized space or further (normally if I have Contract Killers on me I have to travel about 500 Light Years away from home before they stop pursuing, and they will hang around that sector until I get back. The game also seems to sorta-simulate if they should be able to catch up to you if you do certain things, but that's an answer for another dice roll.

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

Okay

We have not received permission from Arya_Yeshe to share the quoted post.

Not so! In FFXI, in the icy north, there are certain areas that you can only pass when there's no Blizzard Weather active. You have to time your travel appropriately if you want to visit certain areas.

In FFXI's tropical volcano, there are lava flows that shift over time. If you want to pass, you have to wait around, or bring along some concentrated essence of elemental ice to spend to open the passage for a few seconds.

In addition, while it's not a general navigation hazard in the overworld, we also sometimes take on a mission that specifically involves clearing a passageway through a blocked cave. There are large boulders that obstruct it, until we manage to break them down so the army can complete its mission in that area.

Now that I think about it, there are actually a lot of these dynamic obstacles in the open world in FFXI. There's one that opens a passage through a zone only at the full moon (both for easier travel, and some exclusive areas and mobs). There's an area that has walls open and close based on the day. If you come in in the evening, it can change on you while you're in there, which can be... interesting, if you don't know the area well. No "making a mental map as you go along" here.

I'd have to say that there's actually outright a TON of this. I can't even remember all the ones I know there are.

<GM> 1d64
<&Dice> GM, 1d64: 40

"no weather cycles"

FFXI has weather, which affects, in no particular order, mob spawns, item drops, the damage of elemental spells and weaponskills, and sometimes what routes are available through an area (e.g. an entrance into a cave being frozen over during a blizzard). There are NPC weather forecasters, who will give you an idea of the weather over the next few in-game days, so you can plan what you're doing.

There are also seasons, which affect the likelihood of different types of weather in different areas.

13:49 < GM> 1d64
13:49 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 24

npcs never build new towns or cities

Elite Dangerous:

The Marlinist Colonies are an association of eight independent colonies on the fringe of the Core Systems. The colonies were constructed by Sirius Corporation and completed on January 14, 3307. Establishing the Marlinist Colonies was proposed by Sirius Corporation CEO Li Yong-Rui on December 10, 3306, as a permanent solution to the ongoing Marlinist refugee crisis brought on by NMLA terrorism, a situation that had raised tensions between the Empire and the Federation to the boiling point. The former Imperial citizens who relocated to the colonies created a representative democracy in accordance with the republican ideals of Marlinism, and established an elected Marlinist Parliament led by a First Minister on January 21, 3307. The Marlinist Colonies' de facto capital is the Coriolis starport Stillman Hub in Concordia, the most populous of the eight systems.

(game builds new starports constantly based on things happening. It's controlled by the devs so it's curated and not directly part of the Background Simulation, but there's other similar things that happen when stations change hands and territories shift, and they will build them in response to player behaviour sometimes)

If this happened in a different game and they were destructible, players would just instantly wreck them, so...

In fact, if you consider structures/strongholds/mini-camps, we do get a bit of that in multiple games, but it's usually not worth the effort precisely because players will instantly go 'CONTENT!' and steamroll them flat.

13:45:41 < GM> 1d64
13:45:41 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 58

We were unable to determine the author of the quoted post.

This already doesn't happen in FFXI. First of all, if you choose a different starting nation, your entire sense of what low- to mid-level progression is, is completely different even before you factor in differences due to your class benefiting from certain quests or even having class-specific quests like the Belt line for Monks. From a pure geographical perspective, a San d'Orian player tends to have a completely different experience from a Windurstian player because the areas of the early game are different for each distinct national start. Until you can go past Jeuno, you'll have a completely different set of formative memories than your friend from another nation, and even afterward there's usually enough variation in areas of each level band (e.g. 30-40, 40-45, 45-50 and so on) that you can go to of your own choosing. Sure, people did post certain "optimal" leveling routes, but I can tell you for sure I never went on a Gusgen Mines farming session, for example.

Overall, there was always somewhere else you could go (usually in sets of 3) for your current level, and it was your choice of which you wanted to go for. After long enough, the combinatorics means that you will often have a different set of baseline experiences from your friends, which makes the world feel more alive and more expansive than a linear route through a set of predetermined/expected areas for certain level ranges.

1d64: 3

"zones always have the same level range"

FFXI Abyssea zones do this. The more mobs you farm in the area for an extended period of time the larger their respawns ramp up in difficulty. I'm trying to think of if it was in Arrapago Reef as well but I can't remember...

Personally I like this mechanic a lot, but it should be reserved for certain end level and capstone level areas.

I also know of a lot more mmos that have mixed level zoning. FFXI again does this but I'm pretty certain other mmos do this as well.

<GM> 1d64
<&Dice> GM, 1d64: 41


"no moon cycles"


Final Fantasy XI - which was released in 2002 - has moon cycles. Every day of the ingame week, the moon changes colors in a set cycle, corresponding with one of the elemental types in the game (Firesday, Earthsday, Windsday, Iceday, etc). Each corresponding moon cycle makes magic effects of their element slightly more effective, and makes the opposing element slightly less effective.


Here's a simple chart showing all of the game's elemental interactions, and the current moon cycle also plays into it, resulting in, for example, Water element spells being extremely effective against Fire-based enemies when used on Watersday:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ffxi/images/1/1e/Compass.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20050629142300

This is one of several features that add to the dynamics of combat. "It's Earthsday, so this Slow spell is more likely to land super effectively on this enemy, but my Stun spell might be resisted" is one example, and it cuts both ways - all players and mobs alike play by the same rules, since we're all living under the same moon, you know?

But it's not JUST a combat feature.

Each element also has a Crystal type associated with it. Crystals, in short, are common-ish drops that are used for various types of Synthesis, the game's main crafting system. For example, if you kill a Fire-based enemy, you might get a Fire Crystal, which can be used to magically heat up meat and cook it. Wind Crystals can be used to carve wood and bone, Earth Crystals fuse things together, Lightning Crystals split things apart (known as "desynthesis"), and so on.

The day of the week - that is, the current moon cycle - also has several effects on Synthesis, depending on which Crystal types you're using on which day, and this means crafters have a lot of dynamics to consider too! Synthing things isn't just a repetitive routine every time you do it - you need to evaluate the day of the week and make a decision accordingly, changing what crafting types you focus on, and the potential results.

Do you have few Crystals and want to make sure your Synthesis attempts succeed more often? Then you need to pay attention to the current moon cycle. Do you have MANY Crystals and want to increase your Cooking or Cloftcraft skill faster, while having a higher failure rate as a tradeoff? You can do that too.

Here's a chart that shows the various interactions, with the outer circle representing "current day of week".

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ffxi/images/1/1f/SynthingCompass.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20050526162318

This is all putting aside that moon PHASES - not just the weekly element cycle, but also whether the moon is Full, Half, New, etc, also have various interactions both within the crafting system AND within combat (there's a cool Wolf summon that has different abilities based on the moon phase, for example), but I won't get into all of that here.

The point is, I could talk about how the moon cycles alone add to the depth and complexity of FFXI all day long.