Grading MMOs on the PvE/PvP scale.

Post by Nerror on 2023-06-14 18:57:34

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Post by Ludullu on 2023-06-15 06:09:43

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By this definition, L2's epic bosses (at least the biggest ones) were PvE encounters. And my suggestion of semi-instanced dungeons would also be considered PvE. But I feel like this would only apply to non-BiS-loot (semi-)instanced content, because in that case the players' intention is not the loot and instead just the encounter itself.

And I feel like that kind of system would be much better for Ashes exactly because it combines pvp and pve in the overall encounter event, even if you don't necessarily have them both at the same time. And I'd prefer if those kinds of events provided people with BiS gear, because both sides would have to be the best players in both pve and pvp (even if that "bestness" comes in the form of social relations). At which point the intent would be "get better loot so that you could pvp/e better", which kinda goes against your definition.

As for the main topic. I can't truly answer because I don't know the gameplay loop of the game. Intrepid have said that they want to move away from grindy designs, but in my experience that is exactly what provides the pve in a game. You do pve over and over and over again until you get what you want. And other players might come fight you during that process, but the fight will happen with pve as the backdrop (making it a PvX encounter).

But that is only doable when you can do pve for hours on end. Which to the majority of people would be seen as grind. And the last time I checked a lot of people dislike grind. I know that some might argue that fun pve is not grind, but at some point the novelty will disappear and you'll just have yourself a chore (EQ2's content output pace notwithstanding).

So if Intrepid somehow succeed in their goal of limiting grind - I have 0 fucking clue how the gameplay loop will be designed and how the pvp encounters will influence the overall PvX balance. L2 had the grind, so even if you were in a guild war against several guilds and were a person who was willing to flag up against any attacker - the split was still around 60/40 pve/pvp (at least in my experience).

If Ashes doesn't have that grind, the split could range from 20/80 E/P (because you get what you want quickly in the pve) to 90/10 (if you only participate in forced pvp events).

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Post by Azherae on 2023-06-16 20:43:15

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If there's anything we've learned from the last decade of MMO design, it's that the answer to your final question can reasonably be 'yes' even for a game like Ashes.

At this point I don't even like to assume devs know what that would be.

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