Post by Azherae on 2024-04-30 15:51:51
(this post has been edited due to a game change in one of the Predecessor References originally in it)
How do you feel about the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
Extremely positive overall, only downsides are combat balance, as always, for me. Now that I 'know' this is less 'placeholder' and moreso 'intended', it's a little more sad, but I definitely appreciate the specifics of the showcase's mobs to make it possible to give the feedback.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Wand Weapon Combo system?
Nothing much. While I will consider using a Wand as ranged weapon if I get to do so and still keep my Daggers in melee, that's going to depend on a lot of things that I guess I'll see later as the month progresses.
I don't really feel much when it comes to Wand usage in Tab Target games because for the most part, it is just 'a way to press a button and do ranged damage'. I didn't really feel particularly positive toward anything I saw in the proc tree, but I hope lots of other people are excited about it! More on that later.
What are your thoughts on the night-time lighting shown during the livestream?
Looked great to me, exactly right. This could just be because I'm used to a specific set of shaders in MineCraft that seem to match up, or it could be that it's just so perfect that it's convergent and every game should look like this. Absolutely glorious work by the team, as we say around here, Gabriel, Chris and everyone who contributed should be incredibly proud of themselves, and I can't wait to see what other, more granular things we see in the Nodes, inside buildings, and in the Underdark, eventually.
The Skybox is also amazing, I'm glad to hear the usual rotation will be in place, and looking forward to seeing what Todd and team do with this relative to the Constellations and related systems. Obviously without seeing the time passage too much in this specific stream, I can't compare it to the main ones that I've experienced semi-recently (Throne and Liberty, MineCraft w/shaders, BDO, unnamed NDA project), but I can imagine it looking almost as good.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown during the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
I think I don't like the choices made for the Wand Proc tree, they are a specific type of 'generic' that makes me think they will generally not involve much thought. Basically, they feel noob-trappy, but I definitely can't judge it properly until I see the other specs, so I'll be updating this section of feedback when I've got other videos (or, if they're really detailed, making separate posts in this thread and formatting to tl;dr link those).
Mostly, though, as a knee-jerk reaction, because Wand is such an obvious, and still quite long range, tab targeted 'hold button to do ranged damage' option, I feel that specs such as simply 'do more damage', 'get better cooldowns', are going to have the same problems from my Fighter Archetype feedback. Too binary. Weapon Procs are already a relatively RNG system (assuming ofc that a proc attack has to actually hit, to get the effect) so the level of 'impactful' I'm seeing concerns me a little, but Wand was always going to be a hard sell, I think...
Are there similar systems to the Wand Weapon Combo system you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Overall, the only thing I can compare it to directly is Predecessor again. This is mainly because, while other games have such things, it's seldom applied to the 'wand' type space, or no such space exists, and I don't Technically have the Liberty to discuss certain other personal experiences.
On-hit effects are a common thing in Predecessor itemization, but it's obviously handled very differently, because even though it's a Player Aiming Skill game a lot of the time, you can therefore miss attacks with your ranged caster basic much as will happen in Ashes' Character Skill gameplay. The difference is simply that Predecessor doesn't have a proc system which creates a situation where you can 'drop your combo'.
There's explicit protection from that. Items such as Magnify specifically count successful basic attacks. That means it is up to the player's observation skill, a question of when to respond to getting their proc.
Regarding the removed above:
With the implementation of Brawl mode, which is ofc closer to 'constant teamfights', this proc system was even further removed from the game and replaced with a different observation skill requirement, which is both more lax (for some things) and more stable. We don't much like RNG even in flow states, and even with great skill, a lot of stuff really is still just RNG. Basically, because certain movement options even in a game with Cleave radius damage still approximates to 'Tab Target' stat based RNG, when placed into a high-information-density situation, it falters in ways one might consider unsatisfying.
As I understand it now, Ashes has the potential to have your character succeed at Wand Hits 1-4 and then RNG miss hit 5, the combo ender, but the combo will start over .
While I don't have any specific issue with this (i.e. I don't dislike it enough to feel like it will make combat unfun in itself), I, as a person who does not enjoy binary RNG on effects, obviously prefer the other version, particularly in a game with synergy requirements. I don't want this game to turn into another Accuracy vs Evasion 'whiff fest' thing where everyone just dives into battle and mashes out lucky things, but this is an 'issue' with the way weapon procs work in general.
My specific issue with the Wand ones is that from what I saw, they're more specific and critical to gameplay and planning than some other weapons might be, and this is why I don't much like the idea of Cooldown Reduction or even certain status applications as a Proc Effect as I currently understand it to work, having watched only the livestream video. Another 'edit/feedback update to come later' thing.
Are there other games with night-time lighting that you like or dislike? If so, what are they and why?
BDO's night is interesting, but not directly positive, for me, most of the time. It feels more 'real' than Verra's current iteration, but not generally more immersive. This is due to their lighting model being extremely weird about tonemapping and then having a lot of strange point-light situations. I have a whole theory about which parts of BDO's map were designed early vs late based on which areas look good with the lighting and which ones look silly or janky. So for that game, there's no way to give a single 'rating'.
MineCraft's various Shader options (not the official ones) do a good job most of the time, to the point where there's a specific time of dusk just after moonrise where the world can look more 'real' because the block/voxel edges blend together at longer distances just right. So I think I'd put that in 'like', particularly when the worldgen or the player-builder knows how to take advantage of it, hence why I'm looking forward to all the work that the world design teams do relative to the skybox and lighting, particularly in Nodes.
Throne and Liberty's Nighttime lighting is hard to judge sometimes, because the materials they use for the world in that game are very slightly off for me personally, in almost the exact same way that Ashes materials were before this showcase. Now, I'm not a person who normally cares a lot about this, but it's something you can feel in contrast to the MineCraft part because it causes a slight 'dullness' to things at night which makes everything a little less appealing. The effect is similar to BDO though, it isn't everywhere, so some areas have been more carefully curated than others. I think that TL would benefit from going more in the direction of 'purples' than 'Hollywood blues' as it was put, so I'm glad to see that direction in Ashes' lighting.
Other Random
TL has a problem with their version of Serial Flame Bombing/MultiFireball/whatever. My conclusion was that it needs to have a slight slow or knockback when an enemy that is approaching or targeting the user, is hit, and is underwhelming without this.
Pretty sure that's an easy enough check, to prevent it from being a constant effect from every Fireball that then locks down or makes kiting too easy. The high similarity between the skills and the use cases shown in the video relative to the ones I know of, made me think to mention it.
How do you feel about the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
Extremely positive overall, only downsides are combat balance, as always, for me. Now that I 'know' this is less 'placeholder' and moreso 'intended', it's a little more sad, but I definitely appreciate the specifics of the showcase's mobs to make it possible to give the feedback.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Wand Weapon Combo system?
Nothing much. While I will consider using a Wand as ranged weapon if I get to do so and still keep my Daggers in melee, that's going to depend on a lot of things that I guess I'll see later as the month progresses.
I don't really feel much when it comes to Wand usage in Tab Target games because for the most part, it is just 'a way to press a button and do ranged damage'. I didn't really feel particularly positive toward anything I saw in the proc tree, but I hope lots of other people are excited about it! More on that later.
What are your thoughts on the night-time lighting shown during the livestream?
Looked great to me, exactly right. This could just be because I'm used to a specific set of shaders in MineCraft that seem to match up, or it could be that it's just so perfect that it's convergent and every game should look like this. Absolutely glorious work by the team, as we say around here, Gabriel, Chris and everyone who contributed should be incredibly proud of themselves, and I can't wait to see what other, more granular things we see in the Nodes, inside buildings, and in the Underdark, eventually.
The Skybox is also amazing, I'm glad to hear the usual rotation will be in place, and looking forward to seeing what Todd and team do with this relative to the Constellations and related systems. Obviously without seeing the time passage too much in this specific stream, I can't compare it to the main ones that I've experienced semi-recently (Throne and Liberty, MineCraft w/shaders, BDO, unnamed NDA project), but I can imagine it looking almost as good.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown during the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
I think I don't like the choices made for the Wand Proc tree, they are a specific type of 'generic' that makes me think they will generally not involve much thought. Basically, they feel noob-trappy, but I definitely can't judge it properly until I see the other specs, so I'll be updating this section of feedback when I've got other videos (or, if they're really detailed, making separate posts in this thread and formatting to tl;dr link those).
Mostly, though, as a knee-jerk reaction, because Wand is such an obvious, and still quite long range, tab targeted 'hold button to do ranged damage' option, I feel that specs such as simply 'do more damage', 'get better cooldowns', are going to have the same problems from my Fighter Archetype feedback. Too binary. Weapon Procs are already a relatively RNG system (assuming ofc that a proc attack has to actually hit, to get the effect) so the level of 'impactful' I'm seeing concerns me a little, but Wand was always going to be a hard sell, I think...
Are there similar systems to the Wand Weapon Combo system you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Overall, the only thing I can compare it to directly is Predecessor again. This is mainly because, while other games have such things, it's seldom applied to the 'wand' type space, or no such space exists, and I don't Technically have the Liberty to discuss certain other personal experiences.
On-hit effects are a common thing in Predecessor itemization, but it's obviously handled very differently, because even though it's a Player Aiming Skill game a lot of the time, you can therefore miss attacks with your ranged caster basic much as will happen in Ashes' Character Skill gameplay. The difference is simply that Predecessor doesn't have a proc system which creates a situation where you can 'drop your combo'.
There's explicit protection from that. Items such as Magnify specifically count successful basic attacks. That means it is up to the player's observation skill, a question of when to respond to getting their proc.
Regarding the removed above:
With the implementation of Brawl mode, which is ofc closer to 'constant teamfights', this proc system was even further removed from the game and replaced with a different observation skill requirement, which is both more lax (for some things) and more stable. We don't much like RNG even in flow states, and even with great skill, a lot of stuff really is still just RNG. Basically, because certain movement options even in a game with Cleave radius damage still approximates to 'Tab Target' stat based RNG, when placed into a high-information-density situation, it falters in ways one might consider unsatisfying.
As I understand it now, Ashes has the potential to have your character succeed at Wand Hits 1-4 and then RNG miss hit 5, the combo ender, but the combo will start over .
While I don't have any specific issue with this (i.e. I don't dislike it enough to feel like it will make combat unfun in itself), I, as a person who does not enjoy binary RNG on effects, obviously prefer the other version, particularly in a game with synergy requirements. I don't want this game to turn into another Accuracy vs Evasion 'whiff fest' thing where everyone just dives into battle and mashes out lucky things, but this is an 'issue' with the way weapon procs work in general.
My specific issue with the Wand ones is that from what I saw, they're more specific and critical to gameplay and planning than some other weapons might be, and this is why I don't much like the idea of Cooldown Reduction or even certain status applications as a Proc Effect as I currently understand it to work, having watched only the livestream video. Another 'edit/feedback update to come later' thing.
Are there other games with night-time lighting that you like or dislike? If so, what are they and why?
BDO's night is interesting, but not directly positive, for me, most of the time. It feels more 'real' than Verra's current iteration, but not generally more immersive. This is due to their lighting model being extremely weird about tonemapping and then having a lot of strange point-light situations. I have a whole theory about which parts of BDO's map were designed early vs late based on which areas look good with the lighting and which ones look silly or janky. So for that game, there's no way to give a single 'rating'.
MineCraft's various Shader options (not the official ones) do a good job most of the time, to the point where there's a specific time of dusk just after moonrise where the world can look more 'real' because the block/voxel edges blend together at longer distances just right. So I think I'd put that in 'like', particularly when the worldgen or the player-builder knows how to take advantage of it, hence why I'm looking forward to all the work that the world design teams do relative to the skybox and lighting, particularly in Nodes.
Throne and Liberty's Nighttime lighting is hard to judge sometimes, because the materials they use for the world in that game are very slightly off for me personally, in almost the exact same way that Ashes materials were before this showcase. Now, I'm not a person who normally cares a lot about this, but it's something you can feel in contrast to the MineCraft part because it causes a slight 'dullness' to things at night which makes everything a little less appealing. The effect is similar to BDO though, it isn't everywhere, so some areas have been more carefully curated than others. I think that TL would benefit from going more in the direction of 'purples' than 'Hollywood blues' as it was put, so I'm glad to see that direction in Ashes' lighting.
Other Random
TL has a problem with their version of Serial Flame Bombing/MultiFireball/whatever. My conclusion was that it needs to have a slight slow or knockback when an enemy that is approaching or targeting the user, is hit, and is underwhelming without this.
Pretty sure that's an easy enough check, to prevent it from being a constant effect from every Fireball that then locks down or makes kiting too easy. The high similarity between the skills and the use cases shown in the video relative to the ones I know of, made me think to mention it.
