Melee Combat Feedback Post 7/30 Livestream

First of all thanks for the great stream, Intrepid.

My issue is simple. The lunging motion was so universally disliked, that I don't feel like the A/B test, as shown, resolves my concerns, at least. I can't 'vote for' lunging rooted attacks unless it also incorporates the other directions (strafe, any ability to just attack in front without moving but with the overall leg animation and such still locked).

I don't know if the plan is actually 'Option A is lunges, Option B is free movement' or if you were planning to go as far as 'Option A is WAD-swings and Option B is free movement', but I don't feel like it's a fair comparison without this.

It didn't really occur to me before that with the free movement, one loses lunges on certain classes, but that actually also concerns me. Yet I don't want to 'say I want A' just for the lunges if the option is 'all lunges, no sideways'.

Watching Steven fight the 'boss' in the video also made me feel much more strongly why I might prefer the WASD style, the encounter design type that is emergent from free movement isn't preferable to me as a whole. Basically, I can simulate that I'd have much less fun against that sort of enemy, again to the point of wanting lunges, but not enough to ask others to play with Lunges but no Sideways.

I hope there's time to consider either a change or a secondary A/B test build where the Sideways and 'one stationary strike' is possible, to compare to the free movement.

I generally don't enjoy PvP in games with too much free movement for other reasons, but one thought that comes to mind from watching was that the movement speed didn't seem meaningfully reduced either, so I expect the problems I usually have with free movement in PvP to all definitely pop up.

I'm feeling pretty sorry for the 'nitpick' here given that I know everyone's working hard, especially working hard to get everything done in the limited Alpha One time availability, but I just don't have much 'confidence' in the test, since there are likely to be so many others like me who 'end up on the fence' because the full 'Option A' (let's just call it A) isn't even available.

Thanks for any consideration you can give, as always.

~Rae

Watching the stream made me breathe a deep sigh of relief because I won't be going past enemies or get my ability cone messed up when fighting enemies, but at the same time...at what cost?

I do like the feeling of being able to wade through opponents and move along with your weapon, especially in large group settings, and the old movement-based system gave lots of options to achieve that, but I think that shifting to this free movement style creates other problems. Steven demonstrated it with a greatsword, and having a greatsword have the same "weight" as e.g. a one-handed sword or a mace in terms of maneuverability seems really strange. The change solves the main issue I was having with the combat in terms of consistency, but it creates lots of others in terms of not just immersion, but also in making combat less committed, especially in PvP where I anticipate engagements in sieges will start to feel very strange compared to what they have been so far.

We have not received permission from George_Black to share the quoted post.

"Toggle" is the A/B test, so that we can rapidly compare the two within the same scenario.

As for the free movement, I don't like it at all. Camera control is a skill, but not what I play MMOs for. Also, if there aren't drastic changes to the ability arc, it will cause even more problems, particularly when lag is in play. the mid range, it will just make it a pain to get close to begin with. Movement should be a choice that affects my positioning and both my and my opponent's options, not just a matter of spinning my camera around as my opponent spins around me. The attack cone Ashes uses would just make this not matter. You can't change it either, because then it would just start to fail. I'm simply not interested grinding my camera control skill, just because I choose to use a weapon with a smaller attack cone.

That was a great stream, thanks to Intrepid for keeping us up to date on development!

I have some thoughts on the new melee combat system. A few other people in the thread have already touched on this, but I feel that there are some advantages to the root motion system which may be lost by switching to a full split body model.

While the forward-lunging attack strings currently in the alpha might not be ideal, I liked the idea of attacks having a deliberate, committed motion. Part of what I like about using heavy weapons in RPGs is needing to account for the period of vulnerability after making an attack, and I worry that the proposed split body combat model could detract from this. I'd feel a bit silly swinging around a Greataxe if I could move around freely mid-swing.

I think that there's probably a mid-point between rigidly-defined attack strings and complete freedom of movement while attacking. It might be possible to achieve the intended fluidity of the split body system without compromising the impactful nature of attacks by lowering movement speed mid-attack, or restricting the range of angles where a player can make a followup attack.

What I'd optimally prefer is a system in which I'm able to change my direction of movement in-between attacks, but remain locked in place while my sword or axe swing is animating. I'd also like being able to access lunging motions which carry my character forward, or lateral slashes that move to the side by hitting a directional key + my attack button, as this could allow for greater control over positioning, while maintaining committed attack animations.

The new combat shown in the stream feels floaty because the footwork is off. For melee weapons in particular, the way a character's lower body moves is disconnected from the way the weapon is being swung, and it gives the impression that the character is off-balance.

I've been practicing Tai Chi Chuan for about 8 years now, and one of the first things I learned is that all combat stances and all movements - attack or defense - start from your feet. Issues with your footwork will affect the rest of your body, and our brains instinctively know this; "if it makes you feel uncomfortable to be in [this martial arts stance], that's because your feet are in the wrong place" is one of the most important things beginners in Tai Chi need to learn, and combat animations feel floaty at the moment for a similar reason.

When attacking while advancing forward, each step should feel committed; when you attack in real life, with or without a weapon, the power and stability you have are only as good as your footwork - having a rooted stance is very important, otherwise it is super easy to lose your balance and get knocked around by your opponent.

So, quite literally, to fix combat animations, you gotta start from the ground up.