Tanking and Threat systems. Making it more than a simple aggro table.

I would argue giving too many tools for reducing hate tips the problem in the other direction. If you have too many you take away the risk from DPS (not entirely, but to a large degree.) The DPS functionally become an extension of the Tanks and Healers cooldowns. I think we can all agree that's unsatisfying design.

Hate does two basic things, it introduces a teanwork element and it makes using certain tactics risky. Even with basic ai, a comprehensive hate system increases the strategy to defeat a target. The team doing positive things for itself needs an element of danger for itself no matter what strategy it is using. Play it too safe and resources might be too low in the next encounter. Play it too risky and you /might/ need to burn more resources anyway.

I think the tp system from FFXI is a missing piece in most other hate systems for similar reasons. For those not familiar. Your basic attack generates points that fill your ws meter. Taking damage fills this, meter some amount that scales depending on the damage receive. Mobs have a similar meter (scaled differently if I recall correctly) and therefore the more you attack them the more often they do big abilities. There is gear and class abilities to reduce how much tp you give the enemy. The enemy rarely has tp wipe abilities but they still exist. But your tp meter lets you do weaponskill chains for big damage with your teammates and is an extra reward for attacking.

I call it a missing piece to other hate systems, because it gives a more visceral and easy to understand way the team is affecting the mob, and it also increases the risk of dps just always doing the big attack whenever tanks mitigation tools are on cooldown. It's also a way to increase the strategy required without increasing the complexity of the ai too much. You sort of build in the mobs adaptability this way and give enemy designers a more direct tool to tweak decision making now that you dont have only one 'threat' in play for the player team to worry about. But it also gives a bonus for tactical strategies that isn't just binary cooldown based rotations. Without this system the number of mitigating tools Noaani listed seem a bit too many. With it they seem far more reasonable.

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FFXI not IV or V, very large distinction relative to what I am talking about.

I'm agreeing with a lot you are saying here. It's crucial to have these systems in early and present.

However your assumption about sameyness are making assumptions that are incorrect. In addition its not a system that works well without being universal.

I can assure you with a lot of confidence that it being a universal mechanic does not make fights feel samey. Different classes and specs use and approach of these universal mechanics vary wildly. That thing you said about different tanks feeling different as a result? Doubly true. Different dps have vastly different strategies for solving the multifaceted problems that arrives when both systems are present. Same for support especially when it comes to subjob decisions. It allows mobs to be a lot more responsive and dynamic, something your proposed system alone could be improved massively with including this mechanic. I know that's a big deal for you and all you have is my experienced opinion, but it's not that different in effecting the 'sameyness' as from your approach (which is not at all imo.)It works well with your approach and FFXI has a lot of emergently similar abilities to ones you listed as a result. It creates far more dynamic and variation in fights when both layers are present.

It being a universal mechanic means it is fine tuneable. If you do not make it a universal mechanic the fine tuning relative to builds and gear is lost.

It leads to a lot more depth and is fairly intuitive/easy to teach the basics, with plenty of room for mastery with more experience.

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What makes you sure?

Edit: rescinded. Adds nothing to the conversation.

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Hmm your right I misunderstood you. My gap in understanding your perspective is that if you don't have it as a universal mechanic, like hate, then the ability to integrate it into gear and over all class strategy and balance is lost. Do you have a reason to think it is possible to make it a sometimes mechanic while achieving that?

Mk. I suppose you could instance the mechanic. I personally think it would make the rest of the game feel terrible in comparison. It would feel much more like 'slapping on the mechanic' to me than letting it flourish into a system with a lot of differentiation between the classes and capacity to make combat and team work feel really engaging. Especially with the way Steven was talking about weapon combos the other day. I just can't get over the opportunities it would be missing in regards to class and gear design. So ultimately disagree with that approach.

Your perspective is pretty clear and I now have learned yet another thing you consider important to game design approach. I hope you get to feel EQ2 vibes in a games combat again. Whether it be ashes or elsewhere. I think we are seeing one anothers perspectives at least.

Holy fucking necroposting, batman.