Cosmetic Shop is P2W

As I've said in another post in another p2w thread, if the majority of mmo players truly cared about how you achieved the cosmetics - we wouldn't have the current monetization practices of "selling cosmetics is completely fine". But alas, we're here.

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Again, if the absolute majority of people (those who just buy the cosmetics and literally prop up the this whole damn monetization scheme) really cared about any of this shit - we wouldn't have it. But those people don't care, which is why we do have this monetization. Alternatively one could call all those paying people dumb and sheep, but I shall not do that (even though I just did).

All the vocal minority who scream that smth's unfair or p2w or whatever (this includes all the other p2w stuff in games) are just that - a minority. No one cares about us and no one will listen to us. Steven was one of us before (though mainly the non-cosmetic p2w part) which is why he decided to make a game that won't have the p2w mechanics that he hated. And so here we are.

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Here's a problem I have with the "cosmetics are p2w" argument. When we're talkin about regular p2w, we're usually talking about objective numbers, be they atk stat or "time to reach max lvl that gives you those atk stats" or anything similar that puts you directly above someone who didn't pay for said "p2w" item.

But when we're talking about cosmetic p2w, how and who determines what's "winning" and what's not. Cosmetics are completely subjective and based purely on taste. 10 people might see a rainbow shop cosmetic, say that it's utter shite and move on, while a single person could see that cosmetic, love it but have no money for it and yell at everyone else about this cosmetic being "p2w". And those people would look at that person and think they're crazy because in their minds this rainbow piece of shit is worthless.

So how can you objectively say that cosmetics are p2w when majority of people can't even agree on what cosmetics are the best (which would determine the winning)?

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Yeah, I'm curious about this, because at this point it seems even less about the collection and could even be pushed to be about just a single item. Like, "I like this particular store cosmetic, but literally not a single other one, but because I see having this particular cosmetic as "winning in my gameplay" I shall deem the whole system p2w".

At some point it becomes absurd. Yes, I agree that different people have different playstyles and that money influencing said playstyle could be seen as p2w, but at some point there's gotta be a line drawn.

And if for you that line is "absolutely no cosmetics in the shop" (as I assume it is) then Ashes might just not be the game for you, as cliché as that sounds.

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But that's exactly how this sounds to me. Do you like and want every single cosmetic in the shop? Is your goal in the game to acquire every single cosmetic possible? Cause if it's either of those - you've already lost the game, because Intrepid have been selling cosmetics for 5 years and you'll never be able to buy any of them.

But if you just want some arbitrary cosmetic in the future, then why are you sure that it's definitely gonna be the one in the shop? Steven has promised that in-game cosmetics will be at the very least on par with the shop ones and even better looking for the super rare ones (though again, it's subjective as hell). So theoretically there's a high chance that any cosmetic you might like in the future could be an in-game one, so you'll be fully able to "win" at your own gamestyle.

And I argue against this because every other example of p2w is directly vertical, while cosmetic one is horizontal.

• You want a higher lvl, but someone can buy it? They're directly above you.
  
• You want to be the best crafter, but someone can become the best one by buying "artisan lvl potions"? They're directly above you.
  
• You want to be the best pvper, but someone can buy better gear than you and beat you? Same shit.
  
• You want a freehold, but someone can straight up buy it while you can't afford it in the game? Same shit.

All of those things are objective p2ws within their whole gameplay systems, because you clearly see that someone can just buy their way upwards. But if your goal is not to have literally all cosmetics, then the whole system of buying cosmetics can't be considered p2w.

And the same logic has been getting applied to p4c items for the longest time, exactly because they usually only influence a small part of their whole system. Smth like a "+10% gain potion" can be seen as p2w by some people, but it still requires the person with this potion to put in work to make use of it to get to a point where the item becomes "p2w". Which is why "p4c vs p2w" is a widely debated topic.

And the same parallel can be drawn between buying a single cosmetic on your way to having them all. If there's 500 cosmetics in the game (afaik there's gonna be way more cause there's already a few hundred that have been sold), that single cosmetic will not equal a single % of the progress to the "win". And at the same time, a person can't just buy every single cosmetic in the game (even if we disregard the "hundreds have been sold already so you've lost), so at best they can only buy some % of the "win". Which would make the shop a p4c system rather than a p2w one.

And you say that you don't draw the line of "just one cosmetic defines the whole system as p2w", so your best argument would be "buying cosmetics is a p4c systems and I dislike that". At least at that point people wouldn't jump on your ass for calling a subjective system p2w. But even then, the system won't change because they've already sold hundreds of items and because the majority of people still don't see cosmetic shops as p2w.

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This is usually seen as "the first cosmetic purchase for a game". And there's countless examples of single player preorders that come with a different skin for your character or a weapon or smth like that. All of those could be seen as "cosmetic shops" for single player games. You pay extra for smth that doesn't influence your gameplay.