"Mis-Land Management" - Solutions to preventing Extinction level events

Post by DarkTides on 2022-11-09 01:51:09

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Post by Dygz on 2022-11-09 01:52:51

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Post by Azherae on 2022-11-09 01:55:10

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Agreed. This is how Elite Dangerous handles it, though I can't easily 'prove' this because the mechanics are very difficult to confirm.

If you do too much of something, it causes a change that becomes very storyline based, locking off one activity type and automatically triggering a different one.

A hostile force can still affect you, but usually, the 'negative' status is actually one that makes it much harder for them to keep having their effect, even if it causes your 'Node' to lose some profitability or something until you resolve it.

Post by DarkTides on 2022-11-09 03:11:16

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Post by Manueljf on 2022-11-09 03:31:53

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Post by Azherae on 2022-11-09 03:34:29

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How much context of how Elite does it do you want?

It's kinda hard to explain without quite a bit of context.

Short version is that instead of having ALL the stuff spawn ALL the time, there's a bunch of stuff that only spawns under certain conditions and Node Statuses.

Basically, if you take decent care of the place, eventually you get to a POSITIVE status with EXTRA spawns, that you SHOULD completely deplete, it's intentional. Then you fight off (or welcome) people who come to take them. But depleting those extra 'reward' spawns does NOT cause a negative effect.

So it's a reward for gathering responsibly.

Give those players some rewards. Players love rewards.

Post by DarkTides on 2022-11-09 07:18:33

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Post by Noaani on 2022-11-09 08:49:38

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Post by Gandalfthegrape on 2022-11-09 09:54:15

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Post by Strevi on 2022-11-09 11:46:48

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Post by Azherae on 2022-11-09 13:45:27

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I share in the 'unpopular opinion' of @Manueljf , that inventory should be somewhat limited (I support materials stacks only being able to go up to 10, 12 or 20 for many things).

I don't believe that mismanagement can be stopped by adding anything to the process if we're talking about RIVALS, but for citizens, I think it helps because it changes things from 'might as well gather all the time' to 'well, is this even profitable'?

The other aspect I would strongly expect to be a thing is HOW and WHERE to gather, being important. I don't know how they would do this for trees effectively BUT there were a lot of good 'hills and small mountains' in Alpha-1 already.

Fortunately, many creatures rely on trees and you could justify having very powerful creatures around relatively normal trees that are quite aggressive. This would increase the challenge of gathering without having to change the mechanics of it. I can tell you what I am used to from Final Fantasy 11.

"Good spawns are deep in dungeons, randomized spawn locations (within a set) that move around, strong enemies often near them, your stealth must be disabled to gather."

If a group is doing the dungeon, and you are friendly, you follow them around and gather, or rely on them to 'save you' if you get aggro when you don't expect it.

This 'buffers' the Land Management because many people won't actually overfarm the WHOLE area, just the part that is easy to do for low effort. When people need to be fully geared, leveled, carrying pots and food every time they mess up a timing, and get into a fight with a mob, possibly one that has 'allies' that 'link' nearby, incentive structure for doing these actions 'whenever' shifts.

In Ashes they have the chance to make this quite useful because it can be 'you gathered a lot of the easy stuff so the node leveled up and you got a new dungeon but since that's harder to gather, it buffers the effect and even if more people come to the node and gather more at the first place, now that first place is 'only half of the total Land Management Asset space'.

The sort of person who just 'wants to quietly gather for a while' is, in my EXPERIENCE, different from the 'I'm getting my friends together and getting fully geared in a half-hour process just to even go deep enough into this dungeon to actually hit the rocks' person.

I've heard it said that FFXI is too hardcore, though, and definitely the change to 'you can gather every tree you see' is going to shift this dynamic (I disagree with it partially for that reason, but I realize this is just bias, there's nothing that prevents a good system where 'areas with lots of trees are also fairly dangerous', I just feel it is unlikely).

Post by neuroguy on 2022-11-09 14:14:23

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Post by Nova_terra on 2022-11-09 15:05:04

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Post by Strevi on 2022-11-09 15:13:03

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Post by Azherae on 2022-11-09 15:21:27

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Maybe so but a well designed game economy is a thing of wonder to behold, with most players doing exactly what suits them at any given time because the system handles itself.

We don't see it these days for three reasons, and 'it is hard' isn't necessarily one of them.

Main reasons for no more good economies outside of like, EVE and Albion-kinda:
  • P2W. This USUALLY breaks it because the way to incentivize people to spend RL money on your game is to break the economy in their favor either by limiting other people or giving them a huge advantage, which, in an open market game, are the same thing
  • "One Cannot Fight Both Bots And Bees" (where bees stands for players who just wanna go from thing to thing occasionally) - long explanation that I'm sure everyone's experienced. It isn't actually true in a PvX game though, you could just chat with them, kill the Bots and leave the Bees.
  • Insistence on increasing monetary rewards as players level just for 'being higher level' (either in gathering skill or adventurer level)

Ashes won't have P2W, is a PvX game, and we don't have any specific indicators that the benefits of being high level in Artisanship will be 'hey, just profit more than low level people!' instead of 'hey, you can do something differently and get better choices presented to you'.

So I don't think it would result in 'no resources anywhere', if the Economy Designer does some basic stuff, because the underlying design of Ashes already helps a lot.

Post by Nova_terra on 2022-11-09 15:27:58

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Post by Azherae on 2022-11-09 15:38:59

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Ah I understand you now.

Yeah, I don't think that's a problem, there's 'too many ways' to solve that.

Unless you mean it would be a problem for THOSE players? Because there's a big difference to me between 'I want to cut trees near the Node but they're always cut down' and 'All the Trees in this ZoI, even the ones up the mountain, are cut down!'

The thing that comes to mind is BDO's fishing system, which DOES keep track of how much fish there are in an area. The starter area is always depleted, but you could move like... 2 minutes over and find a fully abundant space.

I don't feel 'sorry' for the people who don't profit much from fishing near the starter town. If a node is like 5 minutes in 'diameter' and has Points of Interest with possible gathering spots, it's PROBABLY fine for everyone who actually goes further?

Post by neuroguy on 2022-11-09 15:49:05

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Post by Azherae on 2022-11-09 16:02:04

@neuroguy

I actually have a question based on your perspective so I can frame what I'm thinking about correctly...

How many players do you feel are likely to interact meaningfully with a Village Node in a 24h period?

I realized that I'm doing this comparison based on what I experience in Elite which might not be the same.

For clarity, that's something like:
  • 'Village' or lower, 16-ish
  • 'Town' about 30-45
  • 'City' 120-200
  • 'Metropolis' 300-400

In Ashes this would work out to about 2000 players per Metro-zone per day which matches their numbers somewhat.

I have no intention nor wish to 'crunch numbers to prove any points', I'm just trying to remove one of my own biases.

Post by neuroguy on 2022-11-09 16:28:54

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Post by Azherae on 2022-11-09 16:55:54

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Thank you for your help. Biases removed, I believe.

Post by Voxtrium on 2022-11-09 16:56:01

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Post by Arya_Yeshe on 2022-11-09 17:34:28

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Post by Noaani on 2022-11-09 18:26:41

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Post by Strevi on 2022-11-09 20:00:33

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Post by Manueljf on 2022-11-09 22:30:20

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Post by Fantmx on 2022-11-10 00:27:12

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Post by Noaani on 2022-11-10 17:58:51

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Post by DarkTides on 2022-11-10 18:15:44

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