Combat Discussion

I will attempt to explain simply why I am doing this and why it may be helpful.

Generally in development, raw unguided feedback is effort to compile, and the devs generally cannot guide discussion because things rapidly devolve into 'who people perceive the devs to be favoring' or 'people who think the dev's posts agree with them, becoming complacent'.

As a person with little stake in the specific outcome of the combat rework (Cleric) and a decent understanding of how to do this from my career, I am doing my best to do this part for them. Impartially guide the discussion toward a single thing that people in the thread can agree or disagree on smaller issues for a single product.

This way, people can get upset at me, without ever getting upset at Devs and either 'jumping to conclusions' or 'giving useless reactionary feedback', and hopefully continue to have less drama in their own discussions between themselves.

As for your specific points, @Cypher .

I said I could not judge Vindictus PvE based on the 40 minutes I watched. My issue with addressing you is that you don't generally address anything I say, you just... complain that I said it, or about the way I said it, in a specific rhetoric that normally indicates offense or general antagonism (which as I mentioned, I'm fine with).

Devs don't need to deal with that, but for various reasons it affects me minimally, so I'm glad to offer whatever help I can.

So that's where I stand now. I have watched some Vindictus, I gave a basic breakdown. You have given reactionary responses that don't counter anything I said, only call my judgement or goals or ... normalcy(?) into question. That's fine, but just understand that in my experience in product development, people who react like you are reacting get ignored and end up not contributing, when there's a lot of opportunity for them to do so if they can just stop long enough to offer something other than 'I don't like the way it is now'. And that would be why I am willing to go look for your posts. You seem to be someone who has something to offer to this discussion relative to how the thread started . You're just currently not doing so generally. The ending of your last post is somewhat helpful, since now we know that you consider strings and combos to be a meaningful requirement of your definition of Action Combat.

So, given that, would you say that it is closer to:
"Press the button repeatedly quickly in order to get a specific move to happen, where the actual corresponding strikes either morph as you get deeper into the string, or some don't happen at all and go straight to the attack type"

OR:

"Press different buttons together such as W+Q, S+8, in sequential strings with timing requirements and knowledge of animation cancels"?

The first, I know to be viewed similarly to fighting games, once PVP gets involved, and the majority of people really, really aren't good at fighting games, and are likely to react negatively, but can sometimes be taught to play using the correct tools.

The second, I'm familiar with from different fighting games, and from BDO, where it's punishingly hard to execute for many classes but I'm told is 'very rewarding' (in this case I'll give my opinion, it's... ok... I'd rather play Under Night than my BDO Kunoichi, but I could just be bad at the Kunoichi)

Both these systems could be worked into the current Compilation (The various flaws of both these systems
- DPS weirdness mostly) would be on the devs to resolve), but I'd want to get the opinions of other posters, since many of the new posters today so far just seem to be 'opposing the concept of full Action Combat'.

To those posters, I request, if you see any value in what I said at the beginning of this post, please allow me to try to consolidate and guide this, if it helps the devs even a little. I can watch lots of videos, but can't make long posts like this or read other threads too often, schedule wise, so I figured this is what I can do.

My request therefore is, if you don't want full Action Combat (and now, with the additional clarification of Cypher's definition thereof), what will you accept being added to the MVP/Compilation that can bring things closer to what someone who desires it, wants. What can be put into the basis developed by the original posters in this thread, that will improve things for Trax, Cypher, and others, that won't make you feel like you didn't get what you signed up for?

First of all I'd like to begin with a complete apology to @Cypher . (Cypher you can skip to Compilation and what comes after, everything after apology to you is explanation to the uninitiated)

Having finally had time to review more of their posts in the Dev Discussion Combat thread, I realize completely that this was not a matter of antagonism, Cypher just communicates like this all the time, and whatever interactions we had mainly came from the problem of communication about a specific part of the model which was less clear to me , regarding a definition.

What was described relative to Vindictus, for example, and is non-obvious when watching certain games, is exactly how the game is controlled, so what the combat looks like may not clearly represent what it feels like.

I'll now move on to one explanation of something that certain readers might not be familiar with, followed by a rehash of the MVP (without most Reasonings, those are on first page).

Since I don't have a specific term for what Cypher appears to be describing, despite familiarity with it from Dead Or Alive fighting game series and others, allow me to use one that is somewhat familiar, and posters can give me one they like better.

Gated Strings
I will explain this only in the precise terms of the fighting game Dead or Alive to avoid confusion and divert focus from any specific MMO.

In that game, you can press Punch (P) or Kick (K), to do basic attacks, along with some direction. Even without any directions, though, PPP in sequence is a specific string of attacks with specific properties (differs by character, not true for every single character). For most characters, this will not repeat the same Punch three times, it will do three different punches, and the second and third punches are sometimes only possible through this string. Similarly, pressing K while standing still is different from pressing P then K, different from PPK, and different from the third strike of PKK.

One has the option to stop at any point, but the requirement stands. One cannot usually get the exact strike and animation and properties of the last strike of PKK string, by doing any other sequence. Often, even doing PPKK will still not give you this outcome even though it contains PKK, because you started with PPK, and now the K has moved from being the third attack, to the fourth attack.

One important thing is that the game is very very lenient about the timing of these, you can just mostly press them with little regard for what is happening on the screen, and the entire string will happen the same way each time, unless you are so slow that your character has time to stop and return to 'neutral'.

With all that said, it's trivial to add this specific aspect of Action Combat to most games as long as you have enough animators on staff, the issue is always with balance, and the effort it takes to learn all the strings, for the player. I will give no opinions on outcomes to the community, but note that if you see a problem with this, please note it, I may be able to clear it up (I spend a nontrivial amount of time teaching people to play these fighting games, Dead or Alive included), or a proper discussion could be had with other posters.

Current Compilation/MVP
1. Directional control over the Q/LMB attack, specifically being able to 'slide attack' left or right with a fixed animation and distance, two separate strikes as the character spins, with no way for both attacks to hit a character except if they chose the same direction at the same time (also probably a S+Q/LMB that doesn't move your character forward).
2. A "Brace" function that locks you for a moment, probably not cancelable, but can be held (I request that posters discuss the concept of an 'on-reaction' counterstrike on hit to take you out of this stance, as I realized that this might be what one of the main posters on the front page might have been hinting at). This Brace would block some portion of damage from the front and reduce chance of CC, attacking players could add the ability to overwhelm this CC reduction to their attacks.
3. A tiny stamina cost for Q/LMB attack and larger Stamina costs for abilities to make the decision of if to keep doing Q/LMB between other skills, a meaningful one, with Stamina regen over time, set to be very slightly less than what you use up 'spamming Q/LMB'
4. (NEW) Addition of a modified form of gated strings, possibly as part of weapon skill trees, or just default (note that generally, to make this type of thing impactful damage wise, they have to have a skilltree cost, but this is at odds to making it impactful in terms of gameplay decisions, where everything is always available and a player's understanding of recovery frames and such, matter more. Usually for balance reasons, this is not allowed to do significantly more damage)

Main note regarding #4:
The person in support of this function, Cypher, has specifically mentioned it in a modified form. Specifically, without the requirement that the second or third Q/LMB should, in itself, be different (please clarify).
As it works now in game, with the two handed sword, the second and third Q attack is actually different animation. The person in my group that I asked, did not indicate that these different animations have any different damage or additional effects, but the current system in place already seems to have the beginnings of this, i.e. different animations and full 'gated strings', and therefore the potential to add more damage or effects.

This may indicate that their plan is to have this type of thing, and possibly to eventually add these effects? The two-handed sword user I asked, indicated that they were using the Action mode at least half the time, and this still made no difference to the effect (but I'd expect this to be so in PvE for balance reasons)

As always, I await corrections. I may post again around the usual time 3 hours from now if there are any, but if they are small, they'll be included in tomorrow's compilation since posters can just read the posts following this one.

So far, in the Alpha Pre-test, I have seen most of these things play out. Enemy Mages act like mages, attack from far, move away sometimes. Enemy Tanks actually use some defensive abilities while they move and seem to take less damage. So if we assume that is already in, what is it you want out of the feeling? For example, if you are facing an enemy spearman, what do you want to be the challenge on your side?

Example: As Cleric, I'd just back away from them or attempt to evade any lunge attack and use that to get a moment to heal, particularly if I know that they can't use some ability like Javelin due to cooldown. I'd try to use Castigate just before I think they will Javelin, and melee once pulled in, to get my MP back, then 'fake out' trying to escape to get them to Javelin again, then actually escape and heal, since my dodge cooldown would be back. The difficulty would be that since I couldn't dodge twice, I would either take damage while backing off if they also have a charge ability, or I have to use some movement at perfect timing to evade their charge attack (or, if not evade, simply to not be in the same space right after getting hit and hope it didn't get a knockdown).

In this case I would 'need' the side moving Q/LMB to be able to have any real chance of the fight not becoming boring while my Dodge cooldowns are down. Or, if Brace was added, I could decide between 'Brace' and strafing Q/LMB and prevent being knocked down. My opponent could then guess that I would Brace, use forward Q/LMB instead of their charge ability, saving their mana.

(Please note that this isn't a request to use any abilities from the MVP/Compilation at all, but rather to get your input on what you would need beyond what it offers, in order to get the experience you'd want)

@Cypher - it probably would, just really hard to set up, for various reasons. Even then it might still be worth it, because I'm watching tutorial videos and got a bit of wiki reading done and I still don't get it, but I can see that there's something there. For now though, is there any video on YouTube or similar that you can point me at that is more of a guide to how to play a specific character or class, or something? I can't seem to find good ones because I don't know what to look for.

@Starcry - Note that the only reason I haven't applied things relative to your post is that I'm trying to sort my own bias. I also consider FFXI one of the most immersive systems possible and feel like all MMOs should strive toward something similar, but it's precisely because of this long-held opinion, and the 'distance' between where the Compilation is now, and 'Two sequential spells perfectly Magic Burst off a Fusion Skillchain while the Thief gets the last few hits to build the TP required to close the Light SC at the last possible moment with SATA Shark Bite so the mages have enough time to cast their Thunder spells for the kill'.

I've studied how to theoretically get another MMO to that point, starting from various points, and it's precisely because I've done so much iteration on those design principles, that I can't offer unbiased iteration of your opinion easily. Ashes does have the potential to do things like this, though, the systems are there, it's moreso that Augments will be what drives that, moreso than a base combat system. I'll hope you're around when they're taking feedback on that, because they're going to need a lot of it.

For now, back to the spot testing...

No full update today, just a minor one following today's spot testing.

The current system has not, as yet, seemed to go in a different direction than the Compilation, in a way that would disqualify it from being a test case (or rather, being the current or next test case).

@ColdGrayRain - A request for an opinion. Assume you had a Ranger or Mage with an ability that gives some debuff, that only gives the debuff if used in Action mode. Assume that there is a carefully positioned Tank between that character, and their target, that will take the hit instead if the Mage/Ranger does this attack, but in Tab Target, the attack hits without the debuff.

Is the 'Action Combat' potential of 'the Tank and Mage/Ranger interplay, worth the effort, in your mind? This is one of the primary things that 'Hybrid Combat' could lead to, even in the most basic forms. Would you say to not bother with this because the downsides would outweigh the benefits of this gameplay? Do you even consider this type of gameplay to be 'a benefit'?

Today's update is not based on comments, but on finding time to get together with a teammate and watch them play Vindictus (new character from start)

Rather than specifically speak about the game, as they played for only an hour or so (which, similar to BDO and other games, just levels you rapidly), I will make a clarification of something I said earlier about the game which is likely to come up, moving forward. This is not a claim that this is how it works in Vindictus. Like I said, an hour or so.

Hitstop
The concept is simple. When your opponent lands hits, you get staggered out of your own attack, and have to wait. People don't like this. It isn't generally found in MMOs. It's common in fighting games, which is why many people are bad at them. The first thing you learn in most fighting games is simple.

"My opponent has hit me, I now need to regain my footing and defend and wait for them to push me out of their range with their attacks, or until the start-up of their next attack is slow enough for me to escape or use a quick attack of my own."

Most people don't learn this either. We want to react. We don't want hitstop. We want it such that when we press a button, the thing we want to do, happens. In fighting games, this means most people try to hit the button for their own attack. And it is slower than the opponent's attack. And they get hit again, and lose this way 'without getting to do anything'. Most MMOs are nicer, they let you keep attacking even if your opponent is pummeling you, so you focus on either doing more damage than them or dodging their actual abilities. This is why they turn into 'Spreadsheet contests' or mobility spam. It is why they have 'rotations' and why stuns and CC are so important, because normal hits have no hitstop, you can't stagger other people, you 'need' to use your CC as soon as the opponent is in position because it's almost always max DPS to do so. If you can prevent one of their abilities, all the better.

Without hitstop, zerging increases massively in effectiveness. A dragon whose claw swipe does X damage to one person is a sponge. A dragon whose claw swipe interrupts the attack of everyone in its cone, pushing them back slightly, which also does a downward wingflap or ability if too many players try to move out of the range of the claw, is a fight, but is it an annoying one? If you are 'animation locked' because you got hit and have to wait for your next attack to start after your hitstop, games change. Drastically.

I made the generalization that Vindictus appeared to be 'watered down Monster Hunter' for this reason. In the PvE videos I watched, enemies do damage, but have no hitstop on their attacks. Disregarding the question of if that game is actually like that or not, the thing that would have to be addressed is, 'how do you have meaningful action combat without hitstop, that doesn't turn into either a Spreadsheet Comparison, AimBot Paradise, or Mobility Spam?'

As usual, I will not offer any answer myself. This isn't to say that I don't have answers to questions, only that I don't want to influence the conversation more than necessary. I will give my design knowledge only if directly asked, and even then, as neutrally as possible, I hope.

Right, that's how BDO works. First you use an 'engage', then you use a stun, do damage while they are stunned, then knock them away from you and root them so that they don't get to counterattack you or move while you prepare your next big CC (usually a slow so that they can't dodge properly or kite), and then you use your Super Armored large attack which is almost sure to hit, and dash through or past. If they survived due to having equal gear or something, now you're in position to kite them until the cooldowns on those abilities come back up, or if you have another CC of any kind, hit them with it quickly if they try to attack you, otherwise just ping them with ranged attacks to keep their health low until they stop moving to heal and then CC them.

BDO becomes a fighting game precisely because those things are very effective substitutes for hitstop. Games with less of the options you mentioned have fights that last longer, but balance is normally terrible (because whoever managed to use all theirs first has the damage advantage while those things are on cooldown)

What I'm saying in response to Dygz is that if you have enough stun, snare, root and kite to say 'no need for spreadsheets', you now have hitstop. @Dygz , are you taking the position of 'I am okay with this, this is the skill part', and if you don't mind me asking, have you played BDO?

@Dygz - Thanks very much for the input, your wishes seem to align directly with what Steven has implied Ashes should be like, my concern is: if they receive enough feedback from people who might not understand how very small things influence gameplay of this type, you won't get that.

I think that most people want what you want or something close, but there are literally dozens of easy-to-miss pitfalls on the path to it, especially if many of the more vocal people are trying to get a specific thing out of 1v1 Action combat. I hope this discussion can continue to lead to what you've outlined.

I won't ask you to go try to play BDO, I think your wish is really clear. I ask that you trust me for a bit on 'how easy it is to mess up the enjoyability of what you wish'. However, do note that there is now a new class in BDO, the 'Hashashin', that might finally give you the appearance (and maybe even the gameplay type, based on what you said) that you'd like, if you happen to drift that way.

@maouw - I believe that, at the moment, most of us agree on this, just not how to get there, but I could be wrong, since, actually, I don't think I've seen many objections to the current Compilation, just people adding their philosophical thoughts just as you are.

Let me know if there's anything in the compilation that you disagree with. As of now, the last livestream told us that there will be 'split body' attacks coming soon (your character's legs can move in any direction while you swing your weapon). This is likely to lead things closer to what @Trax mentioned, but (entirely personally now) I'm concerned about this. I want to have faith, but that's literally the path with the maximum number of pitfalls...

Oh don't even get me started. Have you seen the Siege video?

I can't even.

@Merek - It is a little disingenuous to say that BDO is successful as an MMO within the genre/type that Ashes is almost objectively striving towards. By their own admission their class balance is quite bad, even their large scale PvP was functionally ruined as far as most players were concerned just recently, and while the game has quite a few 'active players', understand that BDO builds its metrics almost solely by manipulating the player to literally never log off .

I'm not saying that people don't enjoy BDO. Or its combat. Or even that they don't form guilds and play together. But to say that the game as a whole is immersive in any way, or healthy in terms of player interactions, is ... I'm just gonna say it's straight up wrong. The combat is not necessarily 'the reason' for this, but it definitely does not help the cause.

We have not received permission from maouw to share the quoted post.

I can't say, I hope they didn't go back just because 'people don't like being stuck in place', because that won't actually solve the problem, in my experience, it will create a much larger, more annoying one, that will be harder to catch, raising the chances that it will be pushed too far and then it might be 'too late'. I really, really hope it isn't just that...