Dev Discussion #40 - Enemy Indicators

Post by akabear on 2022-03-29 22:09:13

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Post by GrilledCheeseMojito on 2022-03-29 22:12:34

Mobs show their level relative to you, to some extent, by the color of their name, and then their 'expected party size' somewhat by the SIZE of their name (this seemed to be happening in Alpha-1 but also turned out to perhaps be a bug? Bring it back! lol) or some symbol.

It's definitely more interesting to not know the exact level, but the 'slight pink, red, deep red' seen in Alpha-1 was working really well for me personally. Obviously being an FFXI player I'll also take some nice detailed stat-check messages. If unfamiliar, an example.

"The Goblin Enchanter seems Incredibly Tough, it seems to have High Defense."

For me, I find that these were the most effective parts of the indicator shown in Alpha-1. Displaying the actual enemy level, whether on the name or on the life bar, breaks immersion and does not actually provide more information than the name color system. Ultimately what you care about as a player is "is this a threat?", and for intended boss monsters especially the number can often be misleading. Seeing a sea of deep red names when you enter an area is a quick and visceral way of knowing you're going to have a hard time there!

I'm "hardcore" enough to want there to be no indicator whatsoever of what a boss/raid/etc. monster is beyond their name or appearance being unique amongst mobs; heck, it's pretty fun when an enemy that appears to be a normal mob turns out to be a terrifying boss to me. But I understand that for the general audience, that sort of approach can be somewhat cruel. My suggestion would be to have no indicator for whatever you consider to be a regular mob, and have a unique icon show up either on the enemy itself or on the nameplate when you click to target them, maybe a skull or similar, which would denote that this is an especially strong enemy and you should be careful. My preference here would be to have it only show up when targeting the opponent outright in the nameplate at the top, and that you would only have one icon to indicate "danger", but I would be willing to accept further categories for raid/unique enemy/etc. if those appear, so long as regular mobs don't get an icon of their own. The color system should also not apply to these monsters (or always show up as a particular color) in order to further differentiate them from regular mobs. It helps to add to the feeling of finding something unique and interesting when you do face something like that.

I would also like some general "check" function on the enemy that would tell you if it's particularly defensive or evasive. I think any additional information beyond that is best left for players to find out and document on their own, but it's fairly realistic as a quick status check that if you see something like the bears in Alpha-1 that hm, maybe they have fairly high defense due to how big they are.

I think it's very easy for an MMO to slip into UI hell with lots of elements that detract from immersion, and Ashes thus far has done a fairly good job at keeping that contained. I would like enemy indicators to convey only information that would make sense to your character in this world, and therefore the UI should both minimize its footprint and focus on properties that would be reasonable to grasp for that world's inhabitants.

Post by Aralon on 2022-03-29 23:04:59

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Post by Lash on 2022-03-29 23:38:10

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Post by Solvryn on 2022-03-30 00:14:29

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Post by Eriy on 2022-03-30 00:14:52

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Post by SkylarckTheBotanist on 2022-03-30 00:16:33

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Post by Verus on 2022-03-30 01:14:36

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Post by Strychnos on 2022-03-30 02:10:24

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Post by Crowolf on 2022-03-30 02:50:02

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Post by MybroViajero on 2022-03-30 03:15:13

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Post by Sylvaris on 2022-03-30 03:53:00

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Post by Goalid on 2022-03-30 04:39:29

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Post by Kamik on 2022-03-30 05:57:46

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Post by DeeBee on 2022-03-30 06:51:13

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Post by Szaas on 2022-03-30 08:55:02

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Post by dagirem on 2022-03-30 12:04:29

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Post by mrBok on 2022-03-30 12:29:03

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Post by Noaani on 2022-03-30 12:31:19

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Post by Sinder on 2022-03-30 13:24:28

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Post by BlaqueShaman on 2022-03-30 15:25:23

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Post by Iffithy on 2022-03-30 15:38:44

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Post by Apok on 2022-03-30 16:12:54

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Post by neuroguy on 2022-03-30 16:28:14

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Post by Dygz on 2022-03-30 16:40:57

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Post by Songcaller on 2022-03-30 16:57:43

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Post by Shoelid on 2022-03-30 17:32:21

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Post by Happymeal2415 on 2022-03-30 18:14:46

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Post by SongRune on 2022-03-30 18:29:58

I don't want an absurd amount of information packed into enemy nameplates. Too much noise or 'dazzle' there will only detract from my experience and lower immersion, and having exact levels or stats spelled out is the worst possible way, as it can trigger 'min-maxy' mental processes that actively detract from my experience and reduce my enjoyment in ways that can be hard to ignore.

I don't want to know an enemy's exact level. I want fuzzy, relative level indicators: the sort of thing that we saw in Alpha 1, where the color of the enemy's name changes by their strength, from pink, to red, to dark red. Marking "elite" enemies with a (single) special color, or maybe a small star is helpful too. I don't need more than that. I already know the enemy is an elite, and I'm in for a tough battle. The only thing that I'd add to this is some indicator of intended party size: "Solo, Small, Med, Full". You may not even need this if I can solo an enemy (that I'm not personally weak to) a few levels later than I could fight it in a party, but with special "elite" enemies and open world bosses, it's important to set expectations correctly. I don't mind if this is the size of the name, or a colored icon that appears when I've selected or am pointing at that enemy. At the end of the day, if I find something unusual, I'm going to pay specific attention to it. I don't need my UI cluttered the rest of the time.

I have one request though: Don't make this relative to my class. I need to be able to talk to my friends about an area or enemy type, and all of us have a clear, consistent understanding. We know what enemy types we're personally strong or weak to, but if I'm thinking of bringing my group somewhere, I need to be able to tell them what to expect, and have an idea of how we will fare as a whole.

Along those lines, I also really appreciate FFXI's "check" command for more detailed information relative to my build. Builds are going to vary a lot in Ashes, and having a way to know how you will fare against an enemy will be important. Azherae's already explained this so I'll just quote her here.
It's definitely more interesting to not know the exact level, but the 'slight pink, red, deep red' seen in Alpha-1 was working really well for me personally. Obviously being an FFXI player I'll also take some nice detailed stat-check messages. If unfamiliar, an example.

"The Goblin Enchanter seems Incredibly Tough, it seems to have High Defense."

That 'high Defense' was a quick-check of the mob's defense stat vs your attack stat. You could buff your attack, and then check again, to see if it was now 'no message' (indicating even) and therefore you might be able to take it, or still 'High Defense' which was usually an indicator of enemy type, OR that they were really high above you. It would also report their evasion rating, and usually, this was sufficient, though I'd love something like 'it seems especially resilient' or something to indicate an Elite with high HP, in case you missed the name or saw a name and weren't sure and wanted to check that it wasn't an Elite.

Don't lock this behind a skill or class. Give them a stronger version. I need a way to get an idea of what I'm up against when I'm alone. I can't bring a Ranger everywhere. Giving Ranger or some other class the ability to learn more about an enemy's specialties (damage types, weaknesses, group behavior (aggressive? links?)), is a strong, helpful ability that's particularly valuable for facing new bosses or high-level play, but everyone needs to know, on the most basic level "do I stand a chance?". Anything less will just force people to the wiki, in time.
I don't care for BDO's knowledge system (particularly the part where just gaining 'knowledge' makes the mob easier to fight somehow), it's just a gate that doesn't seem to add much and stacks RNG on top of that.

This simply bears repeating.

At the end of the day: Don't break my immersion. Don't fill my eyes or mind with noise. Give me an idea of what I'm getting myself into. Make it easy to discuss with my guild.

Post by Noaani on 2022-03-30 19:38:50

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