Discussion about grinds

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Percimes to share the quoted post.

Didn't you just describe your own definition of grind?
"Grinding: doing a repetitive task because it's required to get to the next step in any endeavor."

Doing an easy task over and over just to upkeep the item that you need in order to progress.

Oh I guess I have a much different concept of what grinding is than some other people here.

Grinding to me is 'any form of content in a game that isn't directly tied to the most rewarding or most challenging content that is still required for progression or gaining economic power.'

'Doing a repetitive task' definitely comes into play but I would not, for example, call 'having to fight this dungeon boss over and over again to get best in slot' equivalent to the type of 'grind' that comes to mind when I think of 'grinding'. Since first of all, a good boss design should make it such that it doesn't feel that repetitive, and second of all it should be 'the point of the game.' Bosses are supposed to be the spectacle show pieces that push you and your team to the limit. To call them 'grinding' just because you have to repeat them to make some form of advancement is not something I can agree with.

Things like bosses, raids, and sieges are top end content no matter what part of the gear plateau you are at. It can be repetitive if designed poorly, or if you lack incentives to specialize, skill up, and make choices. It still isn't 'the grind' in my opinion though. It's just 'poorly made top end content'.

Where as I think we can both agree 'fighting a bunch of mobs for mats for gear repair or crafting' is definitively grinding. I think what Percimes was trying to get at here is to them what makes a grind 'good' is that it's 'something one can specialize in and get a unique result as opposed to other possible grinds that could be specialized in to get a different unique result.'

And that is actually why I think making enemies more dynamic and challenging, and making the players actions effect the mobs responsiveness in some way is key to making a grind good. It stops feeling like filler and feels like an actual activity. Add a mechanic where you get to clear slightly faster by fighting the mob skillfully and now we are 'cooking with gas' as the kids say.

For gathering otoh, something I think we both can also agree is literally 'grinding, artisan profession edition' PvP works as a way of making encounters unpredictable and it creates a similar effect. Now gathering is an activity you have to gear and prepare for and have reasons to bring friends along. Where as in most other games it is just 'go to point a and press x for a bit. Wait on your character animation to finish and repeat until you need to move on to point b.' If you don't want to fight you are still incentivized to gear and prepare to avoid said fights and minimize losses.

I think making mobs 'trash' and making pve activities 'inherently lacking in player to player conflict out in the field' are some of the core mistakes in today's mmo design that make people bored with the genre.

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

I'm not saying I'll be max lvl. I'm saying I'm gonna hit a soft cap of leveling at which point I'd need higher lvled nodes in order to level up w/o grinding the same low lvl mobs over and over.

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

Ok, I decided to build up those buildings in order to get more unique quests outside my node. Those buildings will require dozens if not hundreds (if not even more) of resources. Getting all of that would either require hundreds of people (as it should) or hundreds of hours of grinding to get those resources by one person (me in this example). So we're back to grinding to go further.

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

Again, I'm talking about a soft cap on those things where I'd need higher lvl nodes in order to progress w/o grinding. And as I stated above, in order to push for that kind of thing I'd have to grind.

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

Again, I'm talking about the first weeks of the release. 13th reference on this page https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Castle_sieges
Guilds will have to level up quite a bit because it's gonna be very difficult to get the castle from NPCs.

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

Again, I'm talking about meaningful non-grindy content. I will not believe that Intrepid can manage to create literal hundreds of unique quests within the first, say, 30 lvls of a character, until Intrepid proves me otherwise. And if they manage to prove me wrong - I'll only be super happy.

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

I'd prefer to defend caravans instead of attacking them, so my side would potentially be less exciting. But even on the off chance that there's enough people running caravans at lvls 20-30, enough people attacking/defending them instead of just leveling up or doing artisan shit, and enough of both of those to fill up 18h of gameplay each and every day with quality pvp where one side (a hardcore player) doesn't just annihilate another side (just normal people who play 2-3h a day and have lowish tier of gear) - repetition of the same action of going from one node to the other could be seen as grindy.

Again, as I've stated in my very first post in this thread, none of the things I'm trying to explain would be considered grind in my eyes. I've grown up on farming the same damn mob for over a week in L2 before getting enough resources for a craft (not even talking about full gear drop here). And I liked that and I'd like that if it was in Ashes.

What I'm trying to argue here is that it's nigh on impossible to completely avoid grind-like activities in an mmo. Yet you're trying to claim that no grind should be present in the game.

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

True, and I hope I am.

Cookies always seem to work out for the dark side. I'd go with those.

We have not received permission from Balanz to share the quoted post.

I'm most interested to see what the PvP grind will be like, as that's much more of a 'real thing'. Getting enough practice to be properly competent in competitive, online PvP games of this style is often really daunting, so for PvE players, I expect finding the time and will to practice may be their main hurdle, especially if they also want to experience as much PvE as possible.

Hopefully the two experiences aren't too far different.