Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

Post by PenguinPaladin on 2022-06-07 13:45:56

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-07 13:53:41

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Those are some damn quick combat resets and no target control from the opposing side, but whatever, we don't know whether Intrepid would even want to limit us that way.
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Yeah, and both sides will have to adapt to each other's setups. As you like to say, in mmorpgs the winner is the one who plays the overall game better. Wanna win? Adapt to your daily enemies, if you have any.
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That's where we'll have to just disagree because we obviously come from different school of thought so it's pointless discussing this.
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Having separate gear for pve and pvp would be limiting to the player, because one will be the obviously better choice than the other.

Having big gaps between gear will limit the player because the one is obviously better and stronger than the other.

Having pve/pvp-specific dials/enchantments for gear would limit pvers and pvpers to only use those for their preferred playstyle.

Having mismatched gear allows for a much more meta'y gameplay because people will just look at what's the most optimal combination of shit and just go with that, while having sets have higher benefits while having downsides would make you take a risk for an encounter. And parties will have to adapt their gear builds to each other, instead of just going with the literal best combination of different parts.

So imo it's your suggestions that are limiting to a player. But obviously you don't see it that way and I ain't budging on my points, so this avenue of discussion is also growing pretty pointless. Good talk though :)

Post by Noaani on 2022-06-07 14:07:56

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-07 14:24:02

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The set will give some particular stats, which can be then dialed through crafting said set. The bonuses from having the set will also give some horizontal stats, which could be changed through crafting (though we'll have to see if crafting works like that). The only "top end" feature about the set would be that it has higher base stats - that is m/p def/mitigation.
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Except we all know that predominant majority will just look up a guide for "ThE bEsT aNd MoSt OpTiMaL gear combo" and go for that, because you simply cannot balance that kind of meta out.
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I'm thinking more about how your character and gear would fit with the rest of the party. If the whole party is just wearing their best and optimal combo (with maybe a few backups for different situations) - your party is fully optimized and barely has any weak points.

But if each party member has to sacrifice some stat "for the greater good" of the party, which then might lead to complications in pvp/pve - that's not only "risk vs reward", but a meaningful choice on the part of each member of the group instead of a selfish "I'm in my best gear so it doesn't matter what yalls are wearing". For me, the player choice comes at the stage of choosing my party. If I prefer one set benefits over the other - I'll pick it and find a party that I suit best.

And as I see it, it's way easier to balance pros and cons of a full set of gear, rather than have pros and cons on each and every piece of gear and hope that there isn't some omega OP combination out there in the millions of possibilities.

Also, I don't remember your stance on transmogs, but I hate them so I wanna wear well-designed cool-looking full sets of armor instead of having some random rags that give me the best stats and cover them up by some cheating mechanic. That's a yet another L2 echo in my preferences.

Post by Noaani on 2022-06-07 14:27:03

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-07 14:54:19

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I might be wrong in this assumption, but I think it'll be harder to find the best and most optimal party+gear set composition than class+gear combo setup. And I can't even make a fact-based assumption on which side Ashes is leaning on, because we have 0 info about classes or gear or augments or anything else really.

Post by PenguinPaladin on 2022-06-07 15:00:22

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-07 15:14:24

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Metas form when there's a ton of positive variety to choose from. And with gear being easily changeable, the meta will definitely set in sooner or later.

But considering how long it takes to lvl classes, if you have sets with pros and cons, across the whole tier spectrum, the meta would be way harder to properly figure out. Or at least that's how it seems to me.

If Intrepid decides to go for +- singular gear pieces and let us completely mismatch everything and all - I'll live with it.

Post by PenguinPaladin on 2022-06-07 15:18:21

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Post by mcstackerson on 2022-06-07 15:26:45

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Post by PenguinPaladin on 2022-06-07 15:32:25

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Post by Ferryman on 2022-06-07 15:34:34

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Post by PenguinPaladin on 2022-06-07 15:50:28

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Post by Azherae on 2022-06-07 16:03:31

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The set will give some particular stats, which can be then dialed through crafting said set. The bonuses from having the set will also give some horizontal stats, which could be changed through crafting (though we'll have to see if crafting works like that). The only "top end" feature about the set would be that it has higher base stats - that is m/p def/mitigation.
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Except we all know that predominant majority will just look up a guide for "ThE bEsT aNd MoSt OpTiMaL gear combo" and go for that, because you simply cannot balance that kind of meta out.
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I'm thinking more about how your character and gear would fit with the rest of the party. If the whole party is just wearing their best and optimal combo (with maybe a few backups for different situations) - your party is fully optimized and barely has any weak points.

But if each party member has to sacrifice some stat "for the greater good" of the party, which then might lead to complications in pvp/pve - that's not only "risk vs reward", but a meaningful choice on the part of each member of the group instead of a selfish "I'm in my best gear so it doesn't matter what yalls are wearing". For me, the player choice comes at the stage of choosing my party. If I prefer one set benefits over the other - I'll pick it and find a party that I suit best.

And as I see it, it's way easier to balance pros and cons of a full set of gear, rather than have pros and cons on each and every piece of gear and hope that there isn't some omega OP combination out there in the millions of possibilities.

Also, I don't remember your stance on transmogs, but I hate them so I wanna wear well-designed cool-looking full sets of armor instead of having some random rags that give me the best stats and cover them up by some cheating mechanic. That's a yet another L2 echo in my preferences.

I honestly hate to 'butt in' here but I'll remind that a slot->enhancement system already resolves almost literally all of these 'problems' by making them moot. Even the main 'choices' of how to design (sets vs something else) disappears mostly.

That said, I don't like set bonuses either, if the game doesn't give me slot-enhancements.

There's a ton of stuff I put up with in MMOs where it feels like the Devs just didn't BOTHER making the (almost?) objectively better system (not talking about this one, lots of different stuff) and I end up wishing that they had to at least explain or justify 'why doesn't this method work to achieve the same thing or similar' instead of just going 'well we didn't feel like doing it that way'.

Because sometimes it reveals strong differences between the game they want to make and the game their players want to play, but more importantly, it lets other designers piggyback better. If you 'see that someone can make decision A but didn't', at the start of your own development, you can either 'assume that person found a problem with option A' or 'that person didn't desire the same outcome you do'. One of those will cost you lots of money.

I mention all this because IF we as a community can get to the point where we 'stop arguing about specific preferences and try to find whatever system achieves all preferences', then at least we know that if Intrepid 'picks a side' instead of using that, they either found a problem with it that we missed (which they could tell us), or they just didn't WANT the game to be that way (in which case we could choose our involvement level).

So do ME a huge favor and tell me why 'Tier of Gear changing the slots available' doesn't resolve all these problems. On the design side, gear is almost always just balanced by 'well how much is it allowed to have' anyway, right?

Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-07 16:14:01

So do ME a huge favor and tell me why 'Tier of Gear changing the slots available' doesn't resolve all these problems. On the design side, gear is almost always just balanced by 'well how much is it allowed to have' anyway, right?
I guess it does? That is if you don't just boost your gear w/o any drawbacks. And I hope that there's full sets across all tiers of gear just so I can continue with my transmog hate :)

Post by CROW3 on 2022-06-07 16:31:58

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Post by Azherae on 2022-06-07 16:36:19

So do ME a huge favor and tell me why 'Tier of Gear changing the slots available' doesn't resolve all these problems. On the design side, gear is almost always just balanced by 'well how much is it allowed to have' anyway, right?
I guess it does? That is if you don't just boost your gear w/o any drawbacks. And I hope that there's full sets across all tiers of gear just so I can continue with my transmog hate :)

I believe I can briefly detail how even without boost drawbacks, it still works.

In Ashes any Class can wear any gear, so if they spend a ton of time on Gear Itemization (which stats go on which gear) I expect a meta would evolve too quickly within Gear. People would lose most of that freedom. If they didn't, it would still be more work than doing something more like this:

"Low level Green Robes have two slots for 'Magic' buffs and Two slots for Resistances."
"Low level Medium Armor has one slot for 'Any' buff, one for Resistances, two for 'Physical'."
:Low Level Plate Armor has one slot for 'Any', one for 'Defense' (like Physical but takes better/more specialized stuff), 2 Physical."
"High Level Epic Plate Armor has Two Any, 2 Defense, 3 Resistance, 2 Physical."

I'm explicitly leaving out a ton of other possible stats and slots. Imagine for UI convenience that these have shapes, you can tell at a glance. Circle, Hexagon, Diamond, Square, Triangle (I think this is the convention now).

Your 'tradeoff' is in the slots themselves. If your Epic Level 50 Plate Armor already comes with high defense, you don't need to slot anything into it's Defense or Resistance slot to beat 'Tier 1 Content'. You slot it accordingly for Tier 2 content when you get that stuff (from running the Tier 1 content, I'd assume').

I'll stop here, if the rest isn't obvious lmk. Tradeoffs that aren't just 'option number limits' are never 'real', they're just shackles on player choices once the spreadsheets get involved.

Post by Dygz on 2022-06-07 17:08:08

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-07 17:08:24

I believe I can briefly detail how even without boost drawbacks, it still works.

In Ashes any Class can wear any gear, so if they spend a ton of time on Gear Itemization (which stats go on which gear) I expect a meta would evolve too quickly within Gear. People would lose most of that freedom. If they didn't, it would still be more work than doing something more like this:

"Low level Green Robes have two slots for 'Magic' buffs and Two slots for Resistances."
"Low level Medium Armor has one slot for 'Any' buff, one for Resistances, two for 'Physical'."
:Low Level Plate Armor has one slot for 'Any', one for 'Defense' (like Physical but takes better/more specialized stuff), 2 Physical."
"High Level Epic Plate Armor has Two Any, 2 Defense, 3 Resistance, 2 Physical."

I'm explicitly leaving out a ton of other possible stats and slots. Imagine for UI convenience that these have shapes, you can tell at a glance. Circle, Hexagon, Diamond, Square, Triangle (I think this is the convention now).

Your 'tradeoff' is in the slots themselves. If your Epic Level 50 Plate Armor already comes with high defense, you don't need to slot anything into it's Defense or Resistance slot to beat 'Tier 1 Content'. You slot it accordingly for Tier 2 content when you get that stuff (from running the Tier 1 content, I'd assume').

I'll stop here, if the rest isn't obvious lmk. Tradeoffs that aren't just 'option number limits' are never 'real', they're just shackles on player choices once the spreadsheets get involved.
This sounds a bit like my idea for enchantment, with slots in a gear piece getting their own effects/stats. Though I still would prefer some risks for those rewards.

And you said "you don't need" when talking about def slots on a high def gear piece. Do you mean just freedom of choice or is the "tradeoff" the fact that you have a limited amount of usable slots (less than the available ones)? Cause I feel like I'd still slot the def boosts even if I already have a high def gear piece, cause why da hell would I not if I can?

Post by Azherae on 2022-06-07 17:10:35

I believe I can briefly detail how even without boost drawbacks, it still works.

In Ashes any Class can wear any gear, so if they spend a ton of time on Gear Itemization (which stats go on which gear) I expect a meta would evolve too quickly within Gear. People would lose most of that freedom. If they didn't, it would still be more work than doing something more like this:

"Low level Green Robes have two slots for 'Magic' buffs and Two slots for Resistances."
"Low level Medium Armor has one slot for 'Any' buff, one for Resistances, two for 'Physical'."
:Low Level Plate Armor has one slot for 'Any', one for 'Defense' (like Physical but takes better/more specialized stuff), 2 Physical."
"High Level Epic Plate Armor has Two Any, 2 Defense, 3 Resistance, 2 Physical."

I'm explicitly leaving out a ton of other possible stats and slots. Imagine for UI convenience that these have shapes, you can tell at a glance. Circle, Hexagon, Diamond, Square, Triangle (I think this is the convention now).

Your 'tradeoff' is in the slots themselves. If your Epic Level 50 Plate Armor already comes with high defense, you don't need to slot anything into it's Defense or Resistance slot to beat 'Tier 1 Content'. You slot it accordingly for Tier 2 content when you get that stuff (from running the Tier 1 content, I'd assume').

I'll stop here, if the rest isn't obvious lmk. Tradeoffs that aren't just 'option number limits' are never 'real', they're just shackles on player choices once the spreadsheets get involved.
This sounds a bit like my idea for enchantment, with slots in a gear piece getting their own effects/stats. Though I still would prefer some risks for those rewards.

And you said "you don't need" when talking about def slots on a high def gear piece. Do you mean just freedom of choice or is the "tradeoff" the fact that you have a limited amount of usable slots (less than the available ones)? Cause I feel like I'd still slot the def boosts even if I already have a high def gear piece, cause why da hell would I not if I can?

Overkill. Or maybe you're a Fighter who wears it because you need some survivability but want to use other stuff, mostly.

Whereas for EXAMPLE high level 'Leather' wouldn't give enough defense options'.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-07 17:17:20

Overkill. Or maybe you're a Fighter who wears it because you need some survivability but want to use other stuff, mostly.
Pfft, nothing's an overkill. If I can do it - I will. And I know quite a few people who have the same mindset, which is why I try to account for that thinking when I suggest drawbacks to mechanics. And the bigger the power boost - the bigger the drawback.
Whereas for EXAMPLE high level 'Leather' wouldn't give enough defense options'.
Well that's just logical. Leather shouldn't give you too much def, if any really.

Well either way, my main point in this particular discussion is - have drawbacks to gear bonuses. Imo it adds some flavor and decision-making to the process of picking out gear and it's a great balancing and meta-preventing tool. Be it done through pre-designed sets of gear or slotted enhancements, or just raw pieces of gear that you can mismatch to your hearts desire - I don't really care, as long as it's not just a "ooh, this piece gives me these buffs so I'm gonna use it 4Head"

Post by Ferryman on 2022-06-07 17:25:11

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Post by Azherae on 2022-06-07 17:26:50

Overkill. Or maybe you're a Fighter who wears it because you need some survivability but want to use other stuff, mostly.
Pfft, nothing's an overkill. If I can do it - I will. And I know quite a few people who have the same mindset, which is why I try to account for that thinking when I suggest drawbacks to mechanics. And the bigger the power boost - the bigger the drawback.
Whereas for EXAMPLE high level 'Leather' wouldn't give enough defense options'.
Well that's just logical. Leather shouldn't give you too much def, if any really.

Well either way, my main point in this particular discussion is - have drawbacks to gear bonuses. Imo it adds some flavor and decision-making to the process of picking out gear and it's a great balancing and meta-preventing tool. Be it done through pre-designed sets of gear or slotted enhancements, or just raw pieces of gear that you can mismatch to your hearts desire - I don't really care, as long as it's not just a "ooh, this piece gives me these buffs so I'm gonna use it 4Head"

Drawbacks to gear are part of encounters, not gear.

Post by PenguinPaladin on 2022-06-07 17:32:03

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-07 17:35:51

Drawbacks to gear are part of encounters, not gear.
Which is why I suggested pre-designed sets that make the entire party build around their encounters, cause I still feel that singular gear pieces with either their own stats or even manually allocated enhancement slots will just lead to peak optimization asap. Though I haven't played a game where both systems were present, to compare which one falls prey to meta builds faster.

Post by Azherae on 2022-06-07 17:47:06

Drawbacks to gear are part of encounters, not gear.
Which is why I suggested pre-designed sets that make the entire party build around their encounters, cause I still feel that singular gear pieces with either their own stats or even manually allocated enhancement slots will just lead to peak optimization asap. Though I haven't played a game where both systems were present, to compare which one falls prey to meta builds faster.

The intention would be that if the person takes their Epic Armor and specs it for Encounter A, but that Spec does not work for Encounter B, within any sort of slotted crafting system, they must now either reSpec at meaningful cost, or keep that Epic Armor for THAT ENCOUNTER and obtain a whole new Epic Armor with a different spec for another encounter.

Also, though, to answer the question, the meta build happens faster in the gear part because META is a function of human ability to process data, in any game with varied encounters. Gear is easier to process (or just absorb someone else's process) than slots and has less nuance, particularly when it has set bonuses.

Reference Points:
Onigiri (sorta), Monster Hunter (I hope I can use this since we're talking about Combat), Aion, Elite (Similar hope since we're talking about builds and META), WoW (at a particular time in its life, WoW players probably know what I mean but I don't think you are one).

Post by Ferryman on 2022-06-07 18:42:42

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Post by Noaani on 2022-06-08 00:59:25

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-06-08 01:21:01

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Which is why I said that sets should have drawbacks so that there isn't one single "best one". Or at least it's not best in all situations, so your party has to support you when you set doesn't match up with the encounter.
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And I've played L2 with multiple different gear pieces meant for different matchups. I had around 10 different pieces that I used for different enemies on the arena. And I personally disliked that I had to do that. And the pieces were even from the same set, just with different horizontal enchantments, so it's not like I had to mismatch my whole character gear, but I still saw it as just an unneeded hassle.

Post by Noaani on 2022-06-08 01:33:16

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