Let’s Talk Enchanting!

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

That is what people mean when they say a game 'does not respect their time'.

But in the case of a completely safe upgrade, what would be the "respectful" length of time required for said upgrade? Would it be 1h or 20? Cause I feel like it's usually 20, or every achievement is instead super easy and fast which is its own problem.

And if it's closer to 20 for everyone, then you're fucking over all the people who can't spend that time for an upgrade (especially if it's extra content and not a necessary one). So imo having a range for those things is fairer.

Now you could say that the game could have some skill-dependent range of time instead of pure rng, but this too would cut off a part of the playerbase who don't have that amount of skill or the time to acquire it.

Obviously this opinion comes from a person who's super used to rng mechanics in their game, but I think it's important to have a different outlook in such discussions

I have not and never will actually advocate for a completely safe upgrade relative to getting exactly what the player wants across the whole item, in an Enhancing/Enchanting system.

My suggestion is entirely based on 'always get something, you can use it anyway, trade or sell the something to someone who is more suited to it, or you can spend the money, junk the 'failure' and do more stuff'.

That retains MOST of what you seem to enjoy while offering more agency than just 'well sucks to be you I got mine'. If I want Ice Resist gear and my Enchantment turns out to be Wind Resist, I can offer it to someone who wanted Wind Resist on the same gear (social), go out there looking for Wind using enemies to grind on for a new experience to get my money back and maybe find out that I like fighting them too/better (experiential) or continue trying the content I needed the Ice Resist for and hope I improve since my new stat is useless but I can keep improving (tenacity).

Any 'heavy item damage equivalent to destruction or destruction itself' system gives me only one of those options. It's the same thing I do now.

Step 1. Never enchant.
Step 2. Continue trying the content without the Ice Resist.

So here's the issue as the 'selfish person', let's assume I'm having a VERY toxic day. I go for my Ice Resist enchant right next to my 'rival'.

They get it first try. I get Wind Resist. I go 'aww FUCK her and her RNG'. Mostly because she's a terrible person who lords it over me and taunts me about it... yeah...

Then I go "I'm not spending 20x what she did, I'll go find some Wind using enemies to fight so I can keep up with her RNG-carried BS. Sheesh'.

OR it goes the other way. I get it first try, she doesn't. Now our cool rivalry is 'broken by RNG' until she can farm maybe 20x more. But I'd also farm 20x more. This just has to happen (or roughly happen) 3x in a row, and now I've lost a rival IF my Rival is a dumbass and doesn't take their 'failure' (-20% Damage Taken Under X Status) and figure out how to turn that into a strength so they can 'keep up'.

But I'm okay with THAT because that's them not seeing an opportunity. That's their failing. In a straight OE system, the only thing they 'failed at' was maybe 'not being cautious enough' or 'not being bold enough' and you know... you can't tell which beforehand anyway.

The people who can't spend 20h on an upgrade should be able to take whatever they GET and go on a new adventure to make what they GET useful. That's the goal of my suggestion.

Azherae wrote: »

The people who can't spend 20h on an upgrade should be able to take whatever they GET and go on a new adventure to make what they GET useful. That's the goal of my suggestion.

What if the higher the OE step you failed on, the more resources you'd get back through the destruction system? So that you could either sell them or trade them to the people who need it to craft that same gear, or you could just use them to recraft the gear itself with only a 1-2h investment on top of what you've already done. It was kinda this way in L2, because failed OE gave you crystals that were used in a ton of crafting recipes, so you'd recoup at least some of your investment (though not too much, but that could be rebalanced however Intrepid wants).

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If it takes me 648h to get ONE ITEM - the game wasted my time. And that's coming from a hardcore mob grind lover.

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Yes, I know your suggestions. I've made some of my own too and I know full well that the system can be completely changed by Intrepid if they feel like. What I'm trying to do is to justify the currently discussed system. And I know that you hate it with a passion and that's a totally valid opinion.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

The people who can't spend 20h on an upgrade should be able to take whatever they GET and go on a new adventure to make what they GET useful. That's the goal of my suggestion.

What if the higher the OE step you failed on, the more resources you'd get back through the destruction system? So that you could either sell them or trade them to the people who need it to craft that same gear, or you could just use them to recraft the gear itself with only a 1-2h investment on top of what you've already done. It was kinda this way in L2, because failed OE gave you crystals that were used in a ton of crafting recipes, so you'd recoup at least some of your investment (though not too much, but that could be rebalanced however Intrepid wants).

I cannot say that this is flawed, exactly, I can only say that I consider it an inferior system. So I feel we're at a point where the discussion stalls. I give reasons why I don't think the solution you are on the side of is good ENOUGH and give reasons why I think the one I suggested achieves more positive things for players.

If your aim is to figure out 'is there a way to use a system other than mine, closer to the one you are defending', you haven't convinced me yet, and I can explain why if you consider it worth the time (tl;dr it achieves the same goals but weaker so why do it?)

If your aim is to 'defend that system' as a general matter, I don't have much more interest in engaging on it because:

You reached the point in the discussion where a stance you took boiled down to 'Well some people might not have the time to play so we should continue to reward players randomly instead', which I consider abhorrent (not you, nor you holding the stance, the stance itself).

What is it relying on? That the RNG will 'cripple' all the hardcore-time players and benefit all the casual-time ones? No, that won't happen. It will be random, it will cause some hardcore-time players to suffer despite their efforts and cause some casual-time players to literally never have any chance whatsoever (when choosing to interact with this system).

My verdict would remain: Never interact with this system.