About mandatory PvP.

We have not received permission from Vaknar to share the quoted post.

I, for one, have no such experiences to share that I would expect anyone hesitant to feel anything remotely positive about. No owPvP game has managed it for ME, and I say this as a player who will gladly both initiate and accept owPvP under nearly any circumstance. Even as the initiator, it is nearly never a satisfying experience in MMOs for me.

I think I can count the number of times I had a positive owPvP experience on two hands. At least it's not just one. But to be fair, I don't play many such games.

I will hope to be surprised. And I definitely will be surprised if it works.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Same as I said before. I want the average person in the game to desire for it to happen the same way they desire to fight mobs.

People who don't like fighting mobs either aren't who I'm talking about here. I want players to look at another player and go 'that looks like it may be about as much fun as fighting a good Elite mob' (bearing in mind that I come from games where basically all mobs have the potential to be interesting and challenging at-level). And then engage (or even check if the other person is willing to fight, if they wanna be super polite for some reason and aren't a Rogue) with the expectation that both sides will gain some knowledge or something from the fight.

I'm sure there's some older MMO that gives this experience that I haven't played, but I'd like a new one.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I wish you were capable of having conversations without projecting so much/making assumptions about what other people want or how.

I don't feel like trying to explain this to you though, maybe you're right and I don't want a PvX game and therefore won't like Ashes. That's a better simpler conclusion.

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

You too? Sure, fine...

This isn't the point either, but if that's the perspective you're capable of, so be it, I'll hope for better from the Dev team.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Ok I'm giving this one try, I'm not even gonna require you to 'not project', but I'm gonna stop if you go off on any weird TANGENTS.

Here's the problem with owPvP in almost every game and imo why it fails.

The attacker has mitigated their main risks before they begin. Can we agree on this? In 90% of situations, if the attacker was carrying a lot of good materials of their own, they don't want to attack a random.

So what do they do? They attack people they know they can beat. They attack with advantage. They attack with low risk. That's a skill, it's a valid skill and maybe that's what owPvP games are all about. I just also think that's why those games are niche or fail.

The player who has something to lose doesn't usually want to initiate the fight. Whether that's mats, the time it took to get wherever they are and don't want to respawn. The attacker is therefore 'a person with low risk, whose gain is the fight itself even if they lose', the defender is 'a person with high risk, something to lose, often less skill, and with little to gain if they win'.

I don't want to see this again. The main thing where this doesn't matter is Objective based PvP and farming spots, but even in the case of the farming spot, it's usually the same. Because the one who wants the spot and actually thinks to ATTACK for it, is probably still taking the lesser risk. It can be satisfying to be the defender and defeat that type of person, but 'PvE' players normally don't want to do this. They expect to lose without benefit.

This whole 'there will be winners and losers' thing is not, in my mind, an excuse for the loser gaining NOTHING. But because MMOs are no-matchmaking, usually poorly balanced games, the loser DOES usually gain NOTHING, not even 'an increase in personal skill or knowledge'.

Yes, there is probably no such MMO. I just don't know why that is. Why it is so important that owPvP rely on 'being so different from MOBAs and games where people can gain something, however small, from losses', that the response is 'no you don't want an MMO go play a MOBA'.

As I said, maybe I do. I will have a new MOBA to play soon enough. Perhaps I'll be happier there.

Azherae wrote: »

Yes, there is probably no such MMO. I just don't know why that is. Why it is so important that owPvP rely on 'being so different from MOBAs and games where people can gain something, however small, from losses', that the response is 'no you don't want an MMO go play a MOBA'.

As I said, maybe I do. I will have a new MOBA to play soon enough. Perhaps I'll be happier there.

I don't think you answered this part of the comment back then, but what would you think about my suggested moba-like system from this comment?

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/340228#Comment_340228

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Yes, there is probably no such MMO. I just don't know why that is. Why it is so important that owPvP rely on 'being so different from MOBAs and games where people can gain something, however small, from losses', that the response is 'no you don't want an MMO go play a MOBA'.

As I said, maybe I do. I will have a new MOBA to play soon enough. Perhaps I'll be happier there.

I don't think you answered this part of the comment back then, but what would you think about my suggested moba-like system from this comment?

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/340228#Comment_340228

I didn't like that one as much, because of some stratification that would occur. Sorry to brush you off, I'll probably poke at it more later, but I'd figure it would just cause another waterfall of 'This isn't a MOBA!' decriers, and they're right.

MMOs already know they need to do something. Some already are. What I'm hearing around here is 'Ashes won't, and shouldn't', and that's fine. Predecessor and TL are both this year. Or maybe everyone else will be the disappointed ones and I'll be the happy one, but I can't imagine 'discussing it on forums' leading to anything, if even Vaknar's responses have been 'maybe people will like it better once they try it!'

I know that Vaknar isn't really told much by the team about designs, but if they had even a hint of something revolutionary, I figure they'd tell Vaknar to at least hint at that, right?

A few months back (or maybe weeks? what is time?) I suggested an addition to the BH system where the PK's victim's resources would have a higher chance of dropping and would be marked with the owner's name, and the BH system itself would reward the bounty hunters for returning those resources back to the owner. I feel like this could alleviate the "loser never gets anything" problem.

I also bundled up that suggestion with another addition to the system, but that one will only become relevant after we see what Intrepid has designed on their own first.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Ok, I'll count that as a tangent. We're just different types of people.

I play games where I usually learn something from losing. I'm not going into matches thinking about how many people I kill, I'm thinking about 'did I get better at this game, can I see where I don't make X error anymore'.

That's just what I look for in games, if Ashes isn't going to provide that, so be it.