Combat Desire Compilation #2 - Throw Yours In

To be brief.

This topic is to absorb all the arguments about stuff that Intrepid did NOT ASK FOR FEEDBACK ON for the current stream data.

Obviously there is a topic for direct feedback for June Update , so if you only care about giving feedback that you know Intrepid will definitely listen to and be looking for, head there. This thread is almost certainly gonna be a lot of arguing and compiling of everything else.

Things the June Update Stream did not show:
1. Exact effect of blocking.
2. Specifics of procs on attacks
3. Spacing concepts
4. Weapon Skills and Weapon Skill Trees
5. Any weapons other than Greatsword and Dual Wield Daggers
6. Any information on how Tab Targeting would work
7. Any information on exactly the effect of a reticle on attack spacings (we just get hitboxes, which are difficult to deconstruct and subject to change anyway)

My opinions are not particularly important to this topic, I'll continue to just compile, but obviously I'll argue and correct misinterpretations as best I can, and I'm sure we can call in a lot of people who can correct whichever misinterpretations I have.

I loved that the rock throw ability pushed the character back. What I wanna know is whether there'll be pushback from strong mob attacks if you're blocking with a shield. Same in pvp. Would some player be able to push me back with a super strong attack? I feel like that'd be a super cool and "realistic" use of the body collision system.

NiKr wrote: »

I loved that the rock throw ability pushed the character back. What I wanna know is whether there'll be pushback from strong mob attacks if you're blocking with a shield. Same in pvp. Would some player be able to push me back with a super strong attack? I feel like that'd be a super cool and "realistic" use of the body collision system.

This would also add a balance factor to heavy vs light weapons, light weaponry having shorter reach and therefore more susceptible to being pushed out of attack range by big swings, which would then have to be countered by awareness of this and expectation to use mobility, so any input on that (from anyone at all) will be compiled as well.

Azherae wrote: »

This would also add a balance factor to heavy vs light weapons, light weaponry having shorter reach and therefore more susceptible to being pushed out of attack range by big swings, which would then have to be countered by awareness of this and expectation to use mobility, so any input on that (from anyone at all) will be compiled as well.

The biggest potential issue with this I can see is all the people always complaining about loss of agency and control due to other players' actions.

Wasn't NW's stagger removed cause people complained about that type of thing? Or was it just "too hard" for people?

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

This would also add a balance factor to heavy vs light weapons, light weaponry having shorter reach and therefore more susceptible to being pushed out of attack range by big swings, which would then have to be countered by awareness of this and expectation to use mobility, so any input on that (from anyone at all) will be compiled as well.

The biggest potential issue with this I can see is all the people always complaining about loss of agency and control due to other players' actions.

Wasn't NW's stagger removed cause people complained about that type of thing? Or was it just "too hard" for people?

Right, but to consider something. Knockback that changes your spacing to an opponent without actually preventing or even interrupting your attack is not, strictly speaking 'stagger'.

Stagger afaik always refers to being interrupted and being unable to start a new animation or attack. In this case I'm talking about 'I as the Dagger Wielder am slammed away from you the Greatsword wielder just as my attack is starting'.

My attack continues, but if I was at close range I still hit, if I was too far out, now my attack whiffs, but at no point did my actual attack falter, my spacing changed.

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I mean, it's on Amazon to properly balance their design instead of removing it completely just because some people don't like it.

Fast weapons stunlock people with stagger? Make the stagger have diminishing returns on such weapons.

Slow weapons feel "weak"? Make their stagger a fraction of a second longer, so that you have a "bigger dick" feeling when hitting someone, but your target could still dodge you if they're faster so you still need skill to use that "big dick".

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Literally anything that you think of about combat that Intrepid did NOT ask for input on this time, is up for discussion in this one.

I think the reason why we don't have framestop on hits is simply because we also have cleaving, and you'd have to build a separate system to manage the two.

I personally prefer when even Action Games don't give you room for counterplay against the mobs basic swings, or it devolves into high mobility characters just never taking damage, but this might not be what you meant.

Well, this is a thread where my OPINIONS aren't supposed to matter much, but on the side of 'thoughts' that are relevant but not necessarily opinions per se...

I am surprised that they committed to a high speed medium mobility game with heavy skill targeting, but mainly because a lot of the prior feedback seemed to be against it.

I think that the speed of the attacks is not as important as the Time-To-Move after them, so it would be possible to slow the Greatsword, and my Greatsword user thinks so as well (she'll probably give feedback in main Feedback Thread).

My opinion on Daggers is in that thread too.

From eyeballing it, it seems that blocking is indeed a percentage mitigation, and I do not expect that to be changed, for various reasons relative to balance later.

It seems that the feedback has been much more targeted than usual in the main thread (perhaps a community demographic change?) so this one is probably thankfully much less necessary. Maybe we can pivot it to 'hey, show us this next!' or something... or maybe the news hasn't spread far/fast yet.

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We saw the 360 spin attack, and it seems that the Greatsword has also retained some of its property from Alpha-1 of being able to hit behind the player a bit, with an animation improvement to telegraph that this can happen (for the third hit).

It has been implied (but not specifically stated) that basic attacks are intentionally more 'action-y', so skills might operate somewhat differently.

I have no idea if either of these points answers your question, but I mention them anyway.

To address some points then, (others, please watch for bias).

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See, I thought this too, because obviously lots of people said this was a dispreference for them, but now that I've seen it, I can tell you that there will be minimal problems with visual clarity other than 'particle effects everywhere which is quite possibly intentional. And so far, the only thing that has made us go 'this isn't a fighting game' was an expectation about how something would be dialed down, but now it has been dialed up. I feel like we can no longer say 'this isn't a fighting game' in the way it is normally implied, and I say that as a person who plays 12 of them.

We have not received permission from Grom1 to share the quoted post.

Since I think we can no longer go based on just Alpha-1, I'll add this wish to the data. I'm taking data from others who agree or disagree with this one too, though this is the sort of thing Intrepid is likely to make a whole separate thing on, so as the close of your own post indicates, let's get that input.

We have not received permission from Grom1 to share the quoted post.

If we go back to point #1, and assume 'this is supposed to be a game with a skill floor similar to that of a MOBA or modern fighter', The last thing you conclude is unlikely. There would be no specific reason to force low cast times or high Area coverage. You would just be expected to 'predict and target' well enough. This is basically what I experienced in Alpha-1, and while we can't say 'that means we will get more of it', the direction change doesn't have to result in it.

The game might just have a higher skill ceiling in PvP outright. We saw from the Hammer skill that the AoE of that isn't particularly large, I feel like without predicting the enemy, it would be easy to miss with that, and that the enemy in question can probably just barely see it to dodge.

You can get some frame data in the usual way from the YouTube step-through of the 4K video. Others including myself have already done some of it. Make sure to adjust for the original framerate. Of course, the frame data is probably one of the things most subject to change, and we don't yet know if there will be 'Cast/Attack speed reduction' stuff, or how they will be handling it if there is any.

We have not received permission from Grom1 to share the quoted post.

I am not sure if I made my point clearly enough, actually.

I'm saying that they might be aiming for that without actually caring or minding too much. But that seems to be an afterthought currently so for anyone else who is giving data, please note the last paragraph in the above quote as the direct 'data prompt'.

My input, since it is not my prompt, is:

"I would not like either of those changes to be made, I like the speed where it is, and I do not currently feel a need for any changes based on concerns about visual clarity."

I'm a preferer of super strong visual clarity, so I'd definitely like some longer cds on abilities and smaller vfx on the basic attacks. And considering that basic attacks are not automatic, I'd assume my suggested changes would increase visual clarity by a ton in mass pvp.

L2 went from super clarity to pretty much "I got no fucking clue what's going on here" within ~5 years. And quiiiite a lot of people disliked that. One of the reasons for that (aside from just new super-vfxy skills) was the atk/cast speed tie to the animation. Earlier version of the game had a fairly slow speed, so animations took longer and there wasn't just requirement to control skill cds (cause L2 didn't have a gcd and was animation-based instead), but judging by the speed of action in this stream (and even smth like basic wand attacks in alpha1), I think some cd control would be required to keep the mass pvp from becoming a mess.