I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

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Like I said, I'm extremist when it comes to this issue. To me even that CoD aim assist brings it way closer to "hybrid" combat exactly because of that assist. Which just goes to show that hybrid combat is the future of all games' combat, so we should be very happy with AoC's direction

NiKr wrote: »

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Like I said, I'm extremist when it comes to this issue. To me even that CoD aim assist brings it way closer to "hybrid" combat exactly because of that assist. Which just goes to show that hybrid combat is the future of all games' combat, so we should be very happy with AoC's direction

Except hardcore PvP games like MineCraft ofc.

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Yeah, and in action combat games "dodging" is also just pressing a button, based on your prediction of your enemy's movement. So I see no difference between L2's environment and "use of dodge skills" gameplay and action mmo's "press A two times to dodge to the left" gameplay.

Does it happen more often in action games? Yes.

Is the pure skill requirement way higher in action games? I wouldn't really say so, because most abilities in action games are aoes, so it's not like you're purely aiming very precise hit scans. I'd say smth like Halo Infinite (and probably other Halos too? Haven't played others) with its dashes slides, hooks and jumps are way closer to what I'm imagining as "truly action" combat. It's constant movement, and high requirement for precision aiming against fast-moving targets is what I'm looking for in action games.

If there're action mmos that operate at the same speed w/o just a shitton of aoes and have good-feeling combat - I'd consider that the best action mmo. From what I've seen, BDO is like 80++% aoes so even with its high speed it's still not as high of a skill requirement as I would like to see in high end pve/pvp action mmos.

And that's just pvp. I really dunno how well can devs design a boss that moves as fast as a top lvl player and can somehow fight 20+ people at the same time, while requiring top lvl gameplay from all of them equally. I do not consider "huge mob stands in one place, while all the action players don't move" all that skill-requiring. And I'd assume Noaani's standards are leaaagues above mine, when it comes to pve difficulty/complexity.

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I forgot to mention this yesterday but this is probably the biggest example of what Dygz keeps saying. Mmorpgs have you play a character in the game, with that character having some of its own agency. You're just the semi-omniscient being within that character's "head" who can control its actions while also providing more info to the character than it should have (i.e. being able to see behind the character w/o it turning).

While action combat mmos bring you way closer to the character and limiting the character's agency. Character's stats don't matter as much because your own physical abilities determine the skill. And the amount of information that either you or the character has is more limited.

So what I'm saying with this is - everyone who wants a more tab-leaning game has a god complex and wants to control people. Yep, 100% the case

Azherae wrote: »

Except hardcore PvP games like MineCraft ofc.

If Minecraft was way faster I'd definitely consider it one of the harder (if not hardest) pvp games out there

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I'm not an action mmo main player so I wouldn't know, but I feel like that's a bad way of approaching balancing in an action mmo. From what I've heard people hate the fact that OE gear in BDO can just make you invincible against people, even though the game requires a ton of physical skill from the player. To me, that kinda goes against the whole premise of "action mmos give you more space to show and prove your physical skill, while tab games give you more space to make builds and come up with proper rotations for different situations" (though obviously, most people just look up guides).

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I just wanna say that while I absolutely agree with you, I mean 1000% agree with you...

This isn't because of BDO's combat.

Not even the whole 'this is basically AoE spam burn-down'.

I hope we can at least move past the concept that BDO's COMBAT is the reason you don't feel connected to the character. BDO's ability to immerse the player is so low that they have reworked their own main starter story 9 times and only now is it even remotely beginning to have a effect.

That is not a Combat issue, though.

NiKr wrote: »

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I'm not an action mmo main player so I wouldn't know, but I feel like that's a bad way of approaching balancing in an action mmo. From what I've heard people hate the fact that OE gear in BDO can just make you invincible against people, even though the game requires a ton of physical skill from the player. To me, that kinda goes against the whole premise of "action mmos give you more space to show and prove your physical skill, while tab games give you more space to make builds and come up with proper rotations for different situations" (though obviously, most people just look up guides).

BDO's itemization is literally too trash to even be considered here.

But it does fall back to where we were before, Mag is quite rightly indicating that there are things you could do well that have just not been done well.

BDO's feeling is correct while you are moving and to some extent while you are attacking. But literally everything after that is wrong. It's like if the Whirlwind Skill shown in the latest Video also filled the entire screen as far as the eye could see, debuffed all enemies' movement speed down 70%, made you invincible to damage, and killed all small enemies in one spin.

The FEELING of that would be the same when the player 'moves to the correct location at the movement speed shown, identifies an enemy, and chooses to use the skill', but the actual design would be trash.

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This is related to something else about the game as well. I'm absolutely not saying that this wasn't your experience. It is related to the Economy and EXP systems.

Players in BDO are incentivized to fight things that do not hurt them, all the way up to endgame when you finally have to stop doing this.

The game grants basically the same EXP number for a given enemy regardless of your level, but every enemy drops the same amount of loot in basically every condition and the only thing you care about is 'can I kill enemies that drop loot that is worth more money yet?'

Your goal is always to mow down the maximum number of enemies in the shortest amount of time so that you get the maximum amount of money .

It's very stupid, but the reason you never fight anything complex enough to require tactics in BDO is that the game's economic structure COMPLETELY disincentivizes doing so in a group in every possible situation.

It is explicitly a design pillar for them that you do not need to play with others.

And my point, (idk if you see it, but I guess I'm still sharing for the sake of others), is that this is an ECONOMY problem, not a COMBAT CORE problem.

This is 'good combat being made into bad combat by poorly designed itemization and economy'.

I say this as a person who disregards ingame efficiency in exchange for combat enjoyment, and am able to enjoy BDO combat by very explicitly choosing to give up rewards for fun.

The game makes me 'spend ingame money' (opportunity cost) in order to actually enjoy it. But it can be enjoyed in the way I believe you are implying is enjoyable, the difficulty is 'having the patience to seek this out' and 'finding a group willing to do it with you knowing that it will drastically decrease their earning power'.

EDIT: A large reason why this is relevant to us as Ashes players, therefore, is simply that 'Ashes could have the exact same battle type as BDO and just have better itemization so you would get a better experience', and similarly, 'Ashes could have a more NWO style combat and then ruin the itemization enough that it would turn into BDO'.

We must watch for both these things and give the relevant feedback at the time, I am asking that you move beyond 'BDO bad hack and slash' so that you are similarly able to give such feedback when the time comes.

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Alright, I guess I was just hoping for too much here.

I will however continue to hope that when the time comes, you can understand how to give relevant feedback nevertheless, and I will continue to hope that it simply never becomes necessary.

I never said it was not (but I'm about to)

"I don't understand how Itemization affects how my class feels."
+
"My feedback is relevant."

It is my personal opinion that feedback from someone who does not understand an interrelation between two systems is of LESS value and relevance than feedback from those who understand the interrelation.

There's no reason that Intrepid specifically needs to share that opinion. I hope they do, obviously, and I also hope to (imo) elevate your feedback to the point where it gains additional relevance through explaining to you.

However, I do not wish to hold you to my belief system, so please accept the specifics of why I hope that Intrepid values your feedback less in this case, as a 'stylistic choice of management', and since I have no influence over Intrepid's choices of management, your feedback may very well remain completely relevant to them, and I will just be unhappy about that.