How to balance tab vs action abilities

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I believe that in an Action Combat system, 50% of 16-person groups could defeat a slightly toned down Jormungand. If you are willing to engage in good faith (imo you sometimes are, sometimes not, or sometimes you don't keep the same conversation target in mind that your 'opponent' does), I will explain this fight in more detail and why it may be difficult for some.

I'd be very interested to learn about the fight, purely because it'd let me understand the pve pov better. I've got a ton of assumptions of my own, but I feel like some of them might be off base because I haven't really experienced any good mmo pve.

The main issue with doing this is that there is in fact quite a lot to explain, some of which requires prior understanding, while not necessarily advancing this conversation.

You could wait a month, you know this will come up again, and at some point, you're gonna get that person who doesn't go 'Uh... well this game is old so it doesn't count!'

At which point, Ice Dragons ahoy!

I would also love to have a real conversation about this sort of thing, but I feel like it's gonna happen one way or another, and it might be better to not have the whole thing here.

Anyways for YOUR most basic understanding, the main framework you'd need to even know what to think about...

The delay between Spells being cast by Jormungand is random but AVERAGES 8 seconds. Paralyze is 'random chance for ability or melee attack to fail', as well as go on CD if it was a special ability. This used to apply to EVERY ABILITY INCLUDING ULT.

Absolute Terror is 'your character is literally frozen and cannot move, be moved, etc, for about 8 seconds'. You still take all damage. If you were mid attack when Terrored, I believe the attack finishes after. This will be super important in combination with...

Spike Flail, which is a special TP Attack response to taking hate from a certain cone behind the dragon while it is on the ground. That's it. Doesn't require anything else other than TP Gauge and normally oneshots all light armored classes. For this dragon specifically, it hits outside of the current alliance with hate. If you are there at all you die.

The area where you fight it is filled with enemies that aggro to spellcasting. Not 'completed spellcasting', the act of spellcasting. They are relatively powerful and must be defeated, but in the end, just adds.

If the weather changes to Blizzard, Jormungand's attacks all become 20% stronger and additional Magic-Aggro Adds appear, these ones being somewhat resistant to physical damage. Their respawn rate is higher.

If the person with hate tries to pull Jormungand away from his preferred spot, the dragon will instead use 'Draw In' which will deposit them right in front of Jormy's face. You can sometimes VERY slowly get him to the EDGE of the area so you don't have to watch your back.

Hate Reset means 'set your hate value to 0'. Which means that whoever was at the highest number above you now has hate.

Blood Weapon is not dependent on TP Gauge and can be activated whenever, because chaos. It causes Jormungand to absorb health equal to damage dealt with standard attack (bites). It has no meaningful effect when the dragon is airborne.

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You've basically made up in your head the connection between 'Me bringing up Jormungand' and 'my hypothesis'. That's where this normally happens.

Mag asked 'Where do you track 6-7 things? What encounters out there are even just chaos?'

It is true that the answer to THOSE THINGS does not counter anything you said above.

Just ignore me, ok?

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I am not trying to prove a specific thing in one direction or another relative to that 50% thing.

So, backtracking. You jumped in late and asked 'what does this have to do with Action Combat systems'. And I was trying to say 'It's not directly related, it's a counterpoint to Mag'. I went too far and brought in more unnecessary numbers. So that's my fault here.

There is no 'scenario', it was just me adding my experience as a designer because that's what I end up doing when I'm thinking about it. That's why you should ignore it. In order for any of that response to have any meaning to you, you'd need to have a predisposition toward trusting in my design experience or skill, which you have no reason to do afaik.

It's a lot of effort for me to switch between 'designer talking to other designers' and 'clearly tracking and debating only the points in question', so I mess it up sometimes.

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If you're talking about the Dygz comment, I think you're just talking about different things.

You mean that when you're in tab combat and have a target, your ability will always go towards your target so it will always "hit" it.

What I think Dygz means is "when that tab ability hit the target, the dmg might not go through due to rng of evasion-to-accuracy equation", while in action it's usually "if you hit a dude with your action attack - you hit him".

I haven't played enough BDO or other action games so I wanted to ask this of those who did play them, are there games where you have evasion stats on top of just physical dodging? And in case that there aren't, would you be ok with a game that did have evasion on top of dodging? Cause I feel like most action players would feel real fucking bad if after a minute of iframe dodges they finally manage to hit their target, but their accuracy is not enough to overcome that target's evasion stats

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

If you're talking about the Dygz comment, I think you're just talking about different things.

You mean that when you're in tab combat and have a target, your ability will always go towards your target so it will always "hit" it.

What I think Dygz means is "when that tab ability hit the target, the dmg might not go through due to rng of evasion-to-accuracy equation", while in action it's usually "if you hit a dude with your action attack - you hit him".

I haven't played enough BDO or other action games so I wanted to ask this of those who did play them, are there games where you have evasion stats on top of just physical dodging? And in case that there aren't, would you be ok with a game that did have evasion on top of dodging? Cause I feel like most action players would feel real fucking bad if after a minute of iframe dodges they finally manage to hit their target, but their accuracy is not enough to overcome that target's evasion stats

BDO has evasion on top of Dodging because BDO is actually happening on two levels.

Evasion handles micro-dodging, dealing with those 130 degree attack cones and huge AoE.

Your physical skill handles macro-dodging. Getting out of the way of big attacks that you know are coming, or misleading your opponent to attack the wrong spot.

It's neither good nor bad in itself, but BDO is of course, garbahge.

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Steven said they'll have multiple ability bars, so in theory you'll be able to go through all of your skills if you want to. It'll just take more pianoing

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The only way I could see Intrepid reaching the pve lvls that I want them to reach within the limitations of speech-related callouts would be their own ventrilo-like voip (mb TS has it too, don't remember), where you can have multiple levels of channel talking. Iirc discord doesn't have this.

Have a party lvl room, class room (for synergy abilities that I would love to see but might not be in the game), cross party room where respective shot callers could talk to each other, and raid-wide speech for the leader.

This kind of functionality allowed me to control my 120-member guild fairly easily because I could say "archer party on that wall, mage party on this wall, melees go below and guard the entrance". Party leaders were able to relay info to me and others w/o leaving their own party room. And they needed their party room because they had to do second-to-second callouts for their own party.

If you had that kind of info relation in an open voice chat it'd be hell and pure confusion, especially during the more hardcore parts of the encounter.

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I would personally be fine with that cause I'm used to exactly that kind of "pve", but I do agree with Noaani's point that having great pve (as they promised with their "only 10% can beat this") would attract more people which is good for everyone.

Now they could've meant just gear-based separation of players when it comes to raiding, but I feel like that'd be disingenuous on their part. When you say "some of our raids can only be cleared by <10% of players", literally everyone would think "oh so it's like the super complex raids from wow/ff14 then?" At least that's exactly what I thought when I first heard it, even though my whole pve experience was just "I need better gear to beat this".