I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Oh, well that's much easier to handle then.

You gave your opinions for some reason and tried to back them up with things you think prove them.

All you need to understand is 'no, the things that you brought as evidence are not proof to anyone else'.

Azherae wrote: »

Two reasons:

1. Most MMOs are bad.
2. If they had a particularly good MMO to play, since most good MMOs don't die, and don't get stale all that fast, they would have focused their time on that one and not had time to play too many others to the point where they would know if they were good or not.

So, if you've played a lot of MMOs, I should just assume you played a lot of crappy knock-offs that came up in that era.

The biggest argument against this that I can see is literally being as old as Dygz and just having enough time in your life to have played several great mmos for 5++ years each. Though even then, we've only got, what, around 25-30 years of "mmos"? So it's not like you could play too many of them.

But yeah, even when I was starting out with L2, I tried perfect world, I tried just a bit on aion, a bit of MU online, some BDO later on, some B&S and was thinking of trying AA too - but through all those tryouts L2 was still better for my preferred gameplay. And having tried WoW way later in my gaming career, I'm glad that I didn't waste money on it back when it was limited cause that would've been a huge waste of $15.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Two reasons:

1. Most MMOs are bad.
2. If they had a particularly good MMO to play, since most good MMOs don't die, and don't get stale all that fast, they would have focused their time on that one and not had time to play too many others to the point where they would know if they were good or not.

So, if you've played a lot of MMOs, I should just assume you played a lot of crappy knock-offs that came up in that era.

The biggest argument against this that I can see is literally being as old as Dygz and just having enough time in your life to have played several great mmos for 5++ years each. Though even then, we've only got, what, around 25-30 years of "mmos"? So it's not like you could play too many of them.

But yeah, even when I was starting out with L2, I tried perfect world, I tried just a bit on aion, a bit of MU online, some BDO later on, some B&S and was thinking of trying AA too - but through all those tryouts L2 was still better for my preferred gameplay. And having tried WoW way later in my gaming career, I'm glad that I didn't waste money on it back when it was limited cause that would've been a huge waste of $15.

Right but even then, I'm not talking about 5-10. I'm talking about 'NebulousNumberThatMagUses' which by the fact that it is not even estimated, must be so high that it can only be referred to as 'lots'.

You don't say "I've done that lots of times!" without either 'trying to bs someone' or 'the number being over 20 and you can't even keep count of it properly'.

And Mag couldn't possibly be trying to BS us, I'm sure there was some post where an actual list was mentioned, and that list was most likely less than half of them, right?

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Yes, you are correct, to us, that is the type of person you are.

Recognizing it is the first step toward solving it. I am happy for you. Please continue on this line.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Yeah, and Noaani has said that he's played a ton of mmos too, yet iirc EQ2's rogue gameplay felt the most fluid to him.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Azherae already answered this.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

And you then told multiple people (iirc) that they have no idea what "fluid combat means". To me that sounds like "only I know what it means and if you disagree with my subjective opinion - you're objectively wrong".

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I mean, you've given EQ2 the same amount of effort I gave smth like Perfect World back in the day. You've tried it out for less than an hour, supported your preconceived notion and moved on. And then you blamed another person for not knowing how super late game BDO played and told them to "trust people who have played it superlate game and know better than you".

This is my basis for saying that you're disrespecting others' opinions.

And as for me not thinking that you've played a ton of games - that is falls. I'm sure you've experienced enough tab games to build an opinion on said games. I'm also sure that quite a few of those might've been poorer copies of their ancestors so they weren't as good as the top quality ones. And if you did in fact play the top quality ones, then I'd be interested in how long you played them. Because, as you said yourself, you only really understand how a game plays after you've played quite a bit of it. And if your answer to this is "I've played enough to understand that I dislike the underlying mechanics/combat" - that'd be completely understandable. That would explain your bias against tab games and would just support your opinion. It wouldn't make that opinion the only correct one, but at least it'll be completely understandable.

I mainly have the exact same opinion. GCD feels like utter shit. I could barely play FF14 because 2.5 fucking seconds of waiting is torture for my adhd brain. But from what I've seen, once you get to top lvl, there's enough skill variety and combat complexity that you're glad that you have that gcd. I might not fully enjoy that, but I wouldn't say that this kind of combat can't be fluid when played properly. If you manage to weave the non-gcd abilities in-between the gcd ones and have a 10+ constantly-casted ability streak - to me that seems fluid. Yes, it's not as flashy as BDO's dashing around and directional attacks, but it has its own fluidity. And if I can say that about the longest gcd in the genre (afaik), I'm sure other tab mmos can have at least a class or two that can feel super fluid.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I'm curious and I don't remember if you've mentioned it before, but have you played WoW at all? It was literally the biggest mmo out there and I've heard countless people praise its combat for its fluidity and responsiveness. If you disagree with that, you'd be arguably objectively wrong because more people enjoyed that game's combat than BDO's one. And if you agree than you'd agree that tab games with gcd can be fluid.

Seems like a bit of a catch 22 to me.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Given this amount, I can tell you that it is insufficient to convince me that you have played enough MMOs to hold the opinions you hold as strongly as you do.

I'm not saying you're wrong to have those opinions, just that they don't convince me, so with that list, there is no point at which you will say "I played a lot of Tab Target MMOs they are all like X" and I go 'Oh that's fair I agree with your position'.

Strengthen your position by increasing your understanding, and then talking will make more sense. Otherwise I, for one, am forced to ignore you simply because you take up too much time for no benefit to Intrepid.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Ah, so you have played wow, now I'm definitely interested in the response. And if I remember combat in all these games correctly, this is roughly 50/50 tab to Action/hybrid. With most newer games being action. Now I think I understand the basis of your opinion a bit more.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

You appear to be incapable of non-binary thought, so you're gettin' ignored.

The reason I consider it important to tell people when they are getting onto my ignore list is because it apparently has an effect on whether or not I see messages when they quote me or @ me in threads.

As per my usual you can assume that I'll still read any post you make that another person bothers to quote, since that might imply it is important. I hope your capacity to see nuance improves.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I don't see a gcd. I'd need @Noaani to explain this video a bit more, but I can't see the skills on the panel all refreshing together when one is used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR4qAR6RRN4

edit: it seems that some of skills trigger smth similar to a gcd, but it's so short and doesn't seem to impact all the skills, that I can't see it being that impactful on the gameplay as a whole at that lvl.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Aren't action games animation locked too? Or can you just spam 20 attacks at the same time if you have the fingers for it?

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I think we're getting to the core of the discussion. It seems to me you just want actiony dodges in your gameplay, and that's it. That rogue from EQ2 video moves around his target. Seems to be trying to move to the back of the target (I assume it's to do more damage, cause that's how daggers worked in L2, but would need Noaani to explain). His skills flow from one to another w/o huge wait times, as a game with a proper gcd would have. And I dunno if you can cancel animations in EQ2, but if you can, then there'd be that too.

So pretty much all the things an action game would have in its combat, except for the direct physical dodges. And outside of that single difference, the only way to really understand whether the combat is fluid and responsive is to play it. I could agree with a statement of "a tab game with gcd might feel clunky due to it", but as I see it, animation locking is not a gcd. It serves roughly the same purpose of preventing people from using 10 skills at the same time, but in a non-gcd system you use every skill one after the other as soon as you can, while in a gcd system you have to wait in-between skills, no matter how fast those skills are animated or executed.

Yes, EQ2's overall combat is slower than BDO, but as you said yourself, not even all action games have to be fast. And if your requirement for fluidity is just "you gotta be able to do stuff in-between attacks, mainly dodging" then I'll consider that your opinion on fluidity of combat for any future reference. Though iirc, I think it was Noaani that said that in a perfect play of the class you needed to perfectly interweave plain attacks with your abilities (or maybe it was Azherae talking about ff11, I forget). And while that is not dodging, that sure seems to me like a mid-skilluse activity that you characterize as being fluid.

Correct me if I misunderstood any of your points.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Then I deem this whole discussion as yet another completely pointless one (aren't they all though), because this whole argument was about perceived fluidity and "objectivity of claims of that perceived fluidity". But even if that objectivity might move on with the times, the perception of fluidity at the time remains, so I'd say relatively speaking both can coexist.

And on the topic of click to move being an old mechanic, doesn't LA have click to move? Maybe not as the main means of traversal, but it's still functional so it hasn't gone away completely. And that shit's an action game

We have not received permission from Dygz to share the quoted post.

It's because we can't really discuss how Ashes will be, while we still have an apparent need to discuss something, otherwise we wouldn't be on these forums. I'm sure there'll be a ton of productive discussions once Alpha2 comes out.