I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

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Open world pvp, free trading instead of soulbound shit, no addons, no fast travel, no group finder, open world dungeons/bosses, no super competitive instanced content (at least right now), more emphasis on community, low amount of solo pve content - those are the first ones that come to mind that are very rare in the recent mmos, while were more widespread in the old ones. And pretty much all of those is the reason I (and a group of at least 10 of my friends/acquaintances) am interested in Ashes AT ALL.

They literally had "maga" hats saying "make mmos great again". If that is not just yelling "our TA is older mmo players" to you, I'd call you crazy. And, obviously, as Noaani said, those things don't mean that newer players won't be interested in the game or that Intrepid isn't just trying to make a good game. But the main TA is people who played those old games, loved their design and then saw the genre go to utter shite. Everyone else who likes the game are just people interested in new mmos or in some particular features that Ashes will have. But when you literally tell people "we're gonna do things that new mmos don't, but older ones did" - you're targeting mmo boomers.

If anything, I'd say that your combat bias is the thing that's clouding your judgment here.

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Yeah, I guess at this point that's a "feature" of newer mmos

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Again, this sub-discussion was about TA and not just "whoever's interested".

This research from 2004 supposes an average age of ~26 for mmo players. Even if we assume that several million young teens got hooked onto WoW, they'll be at least 30 by the time Ashes comes out. And the chances are, a ton of them will be closer to or over 40. And there's even higher chances that the ones the most interested in Ashes would be over 40, because they would've had to be later in their teens to love pre-mid WoW mmos.

And I don't think anyone's here saying that younger people can't be interested in Ashes. But the point is, they're not the Target Audience. And the fact that Intrepid went for hybrid (with full tab as backup) combat is only more proof that they're not targeting all the young people who prefer full action and want to show off their twitch skills.

NiKr wrote: »

And I don't think anyone's here saying that younger people can't be interested in Ashes. But the point is, they're not the Target Audience. And the fact that Intrepid went for hybrid (with full tab as backup) combat is only more proof that they're not targeting all the young people who prefer full action and want to show off their twitch skills.

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to work toward drawing in the younger audiences later though? That's a large part of the marketing of certain other genres, and MMOs are in the very positive position of being able to constantly have a point of reference due to their space in media.

New World didn't do well because for some reason Amazon didn't seem to understand this (or weren't really trying) and burned themselves early.

My point is that they are probably targeting 'the youth' but they have to target them differently, possibly 'later', possibly 'as a subsection of something else'. It's hard to build a community for an MMO by 'starting with a glut of combat content', I feel.

Azherae wrote: »

My point is that they are probably targeting 'the youth' but they have to target them differently, possibly 'later', possibly 'as a subsection of something else'. It's hard to build a community for an MMO by 'starting with a glut of combat content', I feel.

Yeah, that's quite likely. Maybe going for hybrid is for that exact reason. They saw that a ton of tab games added action abilities to appeal to newer audiences and decided to build their own system in such a way that it's way easier to add those kinds of things in the future.

Starting the game by targeting the people who will definitely throw some money at it (older folk) and then appealing to younger players to save the game from falling off a cliff definitely seems like the best way to go.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

My point is that they are probably targeting 'the youth' but they have to target them differently, possibly 'later', possibly 'as a subsection of something else'. It's hard to build a community for an MMO by 'starting with a glut of combat content', I feel.

Yeah, that's quite likely. Maybe going for hybrid is for that exact reason. They saw that a ton of tab games added action abilities to appeal to newer audiences and decided to build their own system in such a way that it's way easier to add those kinds of things in the future.

Starting the game by targeting the people who will definitely throw some money at it (older folk) and then appealing to younger players to save the game from falling off a cliff definitely seems like the best way to go.

I can share one anecdotal point though, and hope it doesn't offend too many people.

MOST players of MMOs, young and old, have relatively poorer twitch and quick-tactic skills. We hear from the vocal minorities that are capable of keeping up and therefore continue playing, but the majority of gamers are just not particularly good at games.

Therefore I can't imagine that this is really about age other than in the sense that Old MMOs were not trying to be flash-in-the-pan experiences to grab money, and the people who have experience with those games are older. In short, I don't think it has a direct connection to 'twitch skills'. Sure there are lots of vocal players of many ages who HAVE such skills and talk about enjoying these games, but there are a huge amount of them who are similarly aware that they just 'don't have what it takes to play these games at high levels'.

When targeting combat design, going for 'recent, familiar, and not particularly hard' is a strong option, with some people that will say 'I'm pretty good' until they meet someone who is 'quite good'. Casual players often lack the understanding required to even get through main stuff, and I think this has always been somewhat true, because 'casual' normally means 'does not consume any additional data outside the game that would lead to understanding the mechanics better'.

Games are easier now because they need to sell more to make up for all the additional money it takes to make them, and competitive games suffer because there is no 'retreat' point. There is no 'well I will just forget about that no-lifer weirdo and go play the part of the game that I'm good at/play it the way the Devs intended'. Groupfinder games and MOBAs have the 'blame your weakest teammate' option, at least.

'Fun' for all ages.

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This link literally says that average gamer is 35-44. And that millenials are the biggest PC users (and older gens are most likely PC users too). By the time Ashes comes out, those millenials will probably be almost 30 (the youngest ones, mind you).

And within those PC users, there's a high chance that only some part is even interested in mmos, let alone older ones.

But I see that it's utterly pointless trying to discuss this, so I'll just leave. We'll see how many young people will be at all interested in Ashes when it comes out.