Phoenix Down: Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-17 08:53:29

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share this post.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-17 08:58:29

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share this post.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-17 09:03:29

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share this post.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-17 09:06:41

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.
Do people click abilities in BDO? Can they even? And if they can/could, would you consider them being good at pvp if they did? Could they even be good at pvp if they had the time to take their eyes off of their opponents?

Cause in L2 you didn't really have time to take your eyes off of your enemy. The ttk was usually too quick for you to do that. And from all the things you've said about BDO, I'd assume it's the same there. And you like to ask people "how good were you in pvp? what's your gear score?", which would imply to me that you do care about the percentile of skill of other people in these threads. We've usually talked in the context of top lvl content, be it pvp or pve. Now you've shifted to "everyday person, rather than top 1%er". But according to that logic, both Noaani and Dygz are "everyday players of BDO" whose opinion should be considered completely valid when talking about combat in that game.

Mag is lying to nearly everyone in this conversation.

BDO PvP, proper PvP, is no more about 'aim' than mid level Street Fighter, on half the classes.

What is happening here is the same sort of situation that comes up quite often. A relatively average skill player is making arguments based on how they think something works rather than how it actually works, which is why we ended up back at the 'everyday players' discussion.

It may be true that the skill floor of usual Action Combat is higher than the skill floor of Tab Combat, but once you begin to talk about skill ceiling even in PvP, they are either equal or, oddly, Action Combat skill ceiling is lower, at least in BDO.

This is why I look forward to Ashes, but I am now convinced that Mag is not just 'misinformed', but is actively being misleading in order to somehow 'not lose this argument'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySZ-bpwOvgU

But don't take my word for it, you can count the Decisions Per Minute here yourself. Timestamp 5:10:00.

I count 23-25 DPM, of which 7 are actually aiming.

Kunoichi is my main class.

The fight is cool. 25 DPM is a nice number for some. Maybe not for all. I enjoyed it for what it was.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-17 09:06:49

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Again, I got no clue what's the upper limit of EQ2's actions. Or what its gcd feels like. To me, from the videos, it looks like there's barely any noticeable gcd, if at all. At least nothing different from simple animations in BDO, just at a slower pace overall. But the pace of the battle seems roughly similar. There's constant movement in both games, there's constant ability use in both games (with both of them having some breathing space between abilities, for one reason or the other).

You've said that BDO has up to 40 skills, but how many of those are really utilized in any given fight. From the few vids I've watch it looked like it was the same 5-10 skills at most, if not even less. While in EQ2 vids I usually see at least 10 used, with usually even close and ranged weapons being utilized depending on the movement of both sides of the conflict. So, to me, it seems that the decision making per tick of combat is higher in EQ2 than in BDO, which could lead to the game feeling faster because your brain is working in overdrive.

In BDO you mainly think about your position in relation to your enemy, direction of your character and direction of your abilities (cause most of them are direction-based afaik). In EQ2 you think about positioning (otherwise it'd be more beneficial to just stand in one place, yet they don't), you think about range between you and the enemy (which is tied into weapon choice), you think about your rotation on top of weapon changes, you think about what your opponent might use (from everything that I've seen from BDO it looks like most people just react to abilities rather than predict them, but I might be wrong) - and that's just in pvp, while I'm pretty sure EQ2's pve is more complex so I'd assume it requires an even more intricate thought process.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Dunno who's saying that someone else's game is shit. I think Noaani have stated multiple times that BDO is good in particular matchups and for particular mechanics, just not as good for others. As for combat explanations and all that stuff, I'd assume it mainly comes down to just "rams butting heads w/o giving in". The main reason we're still on this absolutely pointless topic is that neither side will give into the other side's arguments (be it justified or not) so both sides just keep squabbling. And you're so deep into that squabble that there's no real way of getting out of it at this point.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-17 09:17:13

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.
Again, I got no clue what's the upper limit of EQ2's actions. Or what its gcd feels like. To me, from the videos, it looks like there's barely any noticeable gcd, if at all. At least nothing different from simple animations in BDO, just at a slower pace overall. But the pace of the battle seems roughly similar. There's constant movement in both games, there's constant ability use in both games (with both of them having some breathing space between abilities, for one reason or the other).

You've said that BDO has up to 40 skills, but how many of those are really utilized in any given fight. From the few vids I've watch it looked like it was the same 5-10 skills at most, if not even less. While in EQ2 vids I usually see at least 10 used, with usually even close and ranged weapons being utilized depending on the movement of both sides of the conflict. So, to me, it seems that the decision making per tick of combat is higher in EQ2 than in BDO, which could lead to the game feeling faster because your brain is working in overdrive.

In BDO you mainly think about your position in relation to your enemy, direction of your character and direction of your abilities (cause most of them are direction-based afaik). In EQ2 you think about positioning (otherwise it'd be more beneficial to just stand in one place, yet they don't), you think about range between you and the enemy (which is tied into weapon choice), you think about your rotation on top of weapon changes, you think about what your opponent might use (from everything that I've seen from BDO it looks like most people just react to abilities rather than predict them, but I might be wrong) - and that's just in pvp, while I'm pretty sure EQ2's pve is more complex so I'd assume it requires an even more intricate thought process.
We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.
Dunno who's saying that someone else's game is shit. I think Noaani have stated multiple times that BDO is good in particular matchups and for particular mechanics, just not as good for others. As for combat explanations and all that stuff, I'd assume it mainly comes down to just "rams butting heads w/o giving in". The main reason we're still on this absolutely pointless topic is that neither side will give into the other side's arguments (be it justified or not) so both sides just keep squabbling. And you're so deep into that squabble that there's no real way of getting out of it at this point.

Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis.

Also, this whole '40 skills' is also misleading, whether on purpose or not, in the same way it would be misleading to give someone a character in Street Fighter and tell them 'Choose from 50 different unique moves!'

I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-17 09:29:21

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share this post.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-17 09:29:40

Azherae wrote: »

Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis.

Yeah, to me BDO seems fairly slow. Yes, you gotta dodge here and there correctly, but even from the video you posted, it's mainly a waiting game for a half-second impact, while doing 3-4 same abilities. And I'd assume it's even simpler in mass pvp, just because you don't have the benefit of taking your time with the fight.

And even in the last video that mag posted, I don't see any precision aiming as I would've imagined it to be for peak action fighting. It's mainly general direction and 30-40 degree conal aoe or a pointed 3-4m diameter aoe. To me that ain't fucking aiming. I know that my example of pixel hunting has been dismissed before, but catching a few-pixel-wide fast-moving character seems way more difficult than aiming in a general direction.

Azherae wrote: »

I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not.

Eh, to me this is just casual discussion based purely on self-reported feelings of gameplay, from all sides. People tend to overexaggerate their experiences so I try to account for that and build a rough estimate of what the "truth" is. Obviously videos don't show it. And w/o putting in hundreds of hours in either of the games, I wouldn't know how those games truly feel.

But I definitely appreciate your input on this. Especially knowing that you're trying to ignore mag's posts (considering that's like 40% of combat threads

).

Post by Noaani on 2022-07-17 09:35:15

We have not received permission from Noaani to share this post.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-17 09:42:56

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Similarly, you might as well make the argument that BDO looks slow and easy, using the same basis.

Yeah, to me BDO seems fairly slow. Yes, you gotta dodge here and there correctly, but even from the video you posted, it's mainly a waiting game for a half-second impact, while doing 3-4 same abilities. And I'd assume it's even simpler in mass pvp, just because you don't have the benefit of taking your time with the fight.

And even in the last video that mag posted, I don't see any precision aiming as I would've imagined it to be for peak action fighting. It's mainly general direction and 30-40 degree conal aoe or a pointed 3-4m diameter aoe. To me that ain't fucking aiming. I know that my example of pixel hunting has been dismissed before, but catching a few-pixel-wide fast-moving character seems way more difficult than aiming in a general direction.

Azherae wrote: »

I advise not buying into this at all, whether you are being misled intentionally or not.

Eh, to me this is just casual discussion based purely on self-reported feelings of gameplay, from all sides. People tend to overexaggerate their experiences so I try to account for that and build a rough estimate of what the "truth" is. Obviously videos don't show it. And w/o putting in hundreds of hours in either of the games, I wouldn't know how those games truly feel.

But I definitely appreciate your input on this. Especially knowing that you're trying to ignore mag's posts (considering that's like 40% of combat threads ).

Even given this, it seems to have reached a point of egregiousness that maybe I don't have the same level of tolerance for.

I do have some parallel experiences from fighting games, of course, the sort of person who looks at a playstyle and goes 'That's the wrong way to play that character' or 'you should use X move more' on a YouTube video, then gets flamed to hell because the video is from one of the top 10 players in the world of said character.

Which is followed by the usual response of 'Bro I don't care if you're top in the world you play this character wrong I could beat you easy' (even when the video is not posted by the actual player, as is now common).

It really isn't relevant whether or not these people actually believe what they are saying, I personally find it important that the uninitiated do not believe what they are saying.

Similarly, even I were to claim, right now, that I AM the player in that video, or a friend of theirs, the response would be equally backward, I'd expect. Because if it were not, it would mean the speaker would have to cease based on it.

They never do. They just double down. The reason is pretty normal. Mag THINKS that these things are impressive or difficult or require lots of practice, for others. Mag also thinks that anyone who disagrees must be worse or less knowledgeable at whatever or they wouldn't hold the same opinion.

Before I wasn't sure that I was more knowledgeable than Mag is. Now I'm sure. And it's not even that I hold a different opinion than Mag does about BDO (though Mag seems to need it to be so). It's that I know better than to hold a lesser opinion of other similar games based on their Targeting system.

Mag is the sort of person who 'does not believe in Xiaohai', a player who once entered a serious tournament for a game considered to have great depth, learned to play the game that day, and won the tournament based on fundamental skills accumulated from other games.

I merely offer my perspective because it's so textbook, I guess.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-17 09:43:56

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share this post.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-17 09:49:29

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share this post.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-17 09:52:21

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Oh? Well good thing this is a top NA championship tournament that the game makers themselves have been promoting ingame for weeks now or man, I'd be worried that I chose a terrible video that people couldn't just go to 4:20:00 of instead for a look at the exact thing you claim.

Also this is partially more 'lies', as Succession Kunoichi I can tell you that the number of skills used in that time compared to Ashes is about the same or less.

I think Mag counts things like Ghost Step (directional evasion like that seen in the Combat video recently) and Ghost Greeting (forward moving slash) as 'skills', which isn't wrong per se...

But yeah, no. I'll wait while you dig up and replant your goalposts again.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-17 09:52:24

As is tradition, this is not really getting anywhere, so I'll just go back to watching For All Mankind. Good talk

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-17 09:54:50

NiKr wrote: »

As is tradition, this is not really getting anywhere, so I'll just go back to watching For All Mankind. Good talk

Yeah fine...

I really hate that they're this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1ZtWgHnKX8

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-17 10:01:44

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share this post.

Post by Ludullu on 2022-07-17 10:04:47

Azherae wrote: »

Yeah fine...

I wrote that before your response to Mag. I appreciate you explaining more about BDO's mechanics. I knew that Mag counted all moves as "skills" and just let it slide, while counting the real decisions in that fight. To me a "I move towards the enemy, do an attack, see if it landed and tree out into more attacks or dodge and run" as 4 decisions, even if it took 20 skill uses to execute. And by the looks of it, those were the 4 main decisions in that fight (I mean, they probably always are, though that's obviously a super simplification).

I'm sure there's a few debuffs/buffs in there that might add a semi-tree here in there, but not much on top of that. In L2, I'd have a 4-branched choice literally in the first second of the fight. EQ2's pvp might be a bit more simplistic just because it's not a pvp-main game, but I'd assume it's high lvl pve has quite a few branches too.

Now that's not to say that BDO can't be or isn't complex, but when most of your decisions are "what direction to use with the next attack", I feel like it brings down the overall DPM by a fair bit. I might be wrong in that assumption though.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-07-17 10:08:16

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share this post.

Post by Azherae on 2022-07-17 10:10:20

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Yeah fine...

I wrote that before your response to Mag. I appreciate you explaining more about BDO's mechanics. I knew that Mag counted all moves as "skills" and just let it slide, while counting the real decisions in that fight. To me a "I move towards the enemy, do an attack, see if it landed and tree out into more attacks or dodge and run" as 4 decisions, even if it took 20 skill uses to execute. And by the looks of it, those were the 4 main decisions in that fight (I mean, they probably always are, though that's obviously a super simplification).

I'm sure there's a few debuffs/buffs in there that might add a semi-tree here in there, but not much on top of that. In L2, I'd have a 4-branched choice literally in the first second of the fight. EQ2's pvp might be a bit more simplistic just because it's not a pvp-main game, but I'd assume it's high lvl pve has quite a few branches too.

Now that's not to say that BDO can't be or isn't complex, but when most of your decisions are "what direction to use with the next attack", I feel like it brings down the overall DPM by a fair bit. I might be wrong in that assumption though.

Yeah but that was something that nearly anyone ELSE you would have talked to, would tell you, without much need for any of this.

It's just sad because I just realized that Mag had the predicted response IN the reply to the post that predicted the response .

At this point I kinda feel like I'm being a bully so I'll stop, I gotta work on not having this response to these sorts of people both in games and in conversations. I guess my Ranked Matches today got me into the mindset of 'oh I actually have to walk you to the corner'.

But this ain't that, so... Anyone trying to wade through this, accept my offering of the Tuvala Cup, may it bring you... whatever it is this 'conversation' can bring.