Action Camera & Healing

I'm too much of an L2 simp to want healers/supports doing any kind of dps. You balance the game around party play? Well then make it so that dps can't survive w/o supports and supports can't do shit w/o dps. Though obviously that kind of design would probably not fly in this day and age.

NiKr wrote: »

I'm too much of an L2 simp to want healers/supports doing any kind of dps. You balance the game around party play? Well then make it so that dps can't survive w/o supports and supports can't do shit w/o dps. Though obviously that kind of design would probably not fly in this day and age.

It's not a good design though.

There are two paths. Tell me which sounds better to you.

1. Tank and Healer/Support together are about equal to one strong DPS class but only get half the exp if they manage the kills, slow and steady.
2. Tank and Healers/Supports are even together just 20-30% of a single strong DPS, if that.

In case #1, more people are incentivized to play Tank and Healer and become friends with a bond, and work on optimizing their skills in all areas, DPS, Healing, Mitigation. Then, a good DPS can join them, and everything flows relatively smoothly, expanding their group. Add more DPS and soon you have good reason to seek out stronger enemies.

In case #2, in order to be efficient one must make a larger group, seek DPS first, or 'reach the point where the Tank is not dead weight compared to just throwing more healing Mana at a strong DPS' (healbot). The relationships still form, but the core aspects of it aren't as cohesive and if the game's design is good, you still can't necessarily just 'add more DPS and go up the ladder' of enemy difficulty because the Healing Mana consumption rises too fast.

Healers and supports need to be capable of decent DPS, and it is safe to design them that way. Does anyone ever really think "Man let's get a party of just healers together since we do decent DPS we don't need any of those hard-hitters"?

There's 'social incentives' but you have to be careful about which ones you trigger. Making everything a situation where Tanks or Healers 'have to rely on DPS' or vice versa leads to situations a lot more like GroupFinder outcomes. It wasn't that way years ago, but it becomes that way quickly now, and the two social incentives are somewhat opposed.

You don't want people to 'have to form a pickup group at near max size to be functional', because it forces impatient people to group with easygoing people and can cause internal friction types that lead to declines in sociability for both types.

Azherae wrote: »

There's 'social incentives' but you have to be careful about which ones you trigger. Making everything a situation where Tanks or Healers 'have to rely on DPS' or vice versa leads to situations a lot more like GroupFinder outcomes. It wasn't that way years ago, but it becomes that way quickly now, and the two social incentives are somewhat opposed.

You don't want people to 'have to form a pickup group at near max size to be functional', because it forces impatient people to group with easygoing people and can cause internal friction types that lead to declines in sociability for both types.

This is where my L2 bias shines the brightest. To me it's just too alien to even think about groups of randoms trying to find other people or whatever. I'm so used to "I have a group of people that I play with every day and our stack is set up in the way we want (with dps and supports requiring each other)". If you don't have such a group at the start of the game - you look for a guild to then find them there, or you find other people looking for your class and then you look for a guild who'd accept your group.

And as I said, I realize that this shit doesn't fly because literally all other games are too "just make a group with randoms"-based. I was just throwing my 2 cents on the "healers gotta be able to do dmg too" discussion.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

There's 'social incentives' but you have to be careful about which ones you trigger. Making everything a situation where Tanks or Healers 'have to rely on DPS' or vice versa leads to situations a lot more like GroupFinder outcomes. It wasn't that way years ago, but it becomes that way quickly now, and the two social incentives are somewhat opposed.

You don't want people to 'have to form a pickup group at near max size to be functional', because it forces impatient people to group with easygoing people and can cause internal friction types that lead to declines in sociability for both types.

This is where my L2 bias shines the brightest. To me it's just too alien to even think about groups of randoms trying to find other people or whatever. I'm so used to "I have a group of people that I play with every day and our stack is set up in the way we want (with dps and supports requiring each other)". If you don't have such a group at the start of the game - you look for a guild to then find them there, or you find other people looking for your class and then you look for a guild who'd accept your group.

And as I said, I realize that this shit doesn't fly because literally all other games are too "just make a group with randoms"-based. I was just throwing my 2 cents on the "healers gotta be able to do dmg too" discussion.

Ok, I don't personally agree with that being a 'design goal' either, but that's really not what this topic is about, so it's best for it to head off.

I will only add that I believe 'coming across someone of similar tendencies in game' is better than 'joining a Guild in order to form a party', both from the 'organic' side and the 'avoiding the types of behaviours that come with GroupFinder' side.

When your 'common interest' is 'leveling up'/'clearing content', rather than 'hanging out in a place you already wanted to be', I feel there's been a loss. Do you think that it might be the weaker PvE that causes you to have this feeling? If you don't have an 'area that you find interesting/specific mobs you enjoy the experience of fighting for what they are', it might be less likely to view the 'Grouping' experience as part of the 'out-in-world' gameplay?

(even if you answer this, I'm unlikely to engage further due to the core of the thread)

Azherae wrote: »

When your 'common interest' is 'leveling up'/'clearing content', rather than 'hanging out in a place you already wanted to be', I feel there's been a loss. Do you think that it might be the weaker PvE that causes you to have this feeling? If you don't have an 'area that you find interesting/specific mobs you enjoy the experience of fighting for what they are', it might be less likely to view the 'Grouping' experience as part of the 'out-in-world' gameplay?

In my experience the "hanging out" part came along after finding the group/guild. You had to make an effort (same as other people) to jell well with others. Yes, sometimes this would not work out, but once it does - the relationships are that much stronger. The common interest was not even leveling up. It was "to win". And you had to do whatever it took to do so.

I personally liked that, because as an introvert it pushed me to learn how to converse with people and build relationships quickly. And L2's requirement to have a full group of both dps and supports meant that every person was valuable, which made it easier to build the relationship (because you had to, if you wanted to progress).

To me, if any class can be semi-self-sustaining, it just means that interpersonal dependence is lower and you can disregard people easier. Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption because I haven't played a game where most classes are self-sustaining, but I'm pretty sure Ashes will be that game for me so I'll see whether I'm wrong or not.