Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

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This right here is the 'losing to Sophitia' moment.

Now you're the one off balance and open. I'll let you recover instead, as I said, I'm not a bully. You can go back to compiling your counters to my other post.

I remind you again that I'm absolutely interested in having a real discussion about this. It could lead to much deeper understanding on all fronts. I just don't like when you're misleading, whether intentionally or not. Therefore you get what I'm sure you know in the scene we refer to as 'The CallOut'.

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I was agreeing with her, not you, sorry.

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I have literally never complained on my own behalf about the idea of Ashes becoming more like a Fighting Game.

I just know that Fighting games are hard, hard to teach, hard to master, and in some cases hard to learn. And this would make the game less popular. I am concerned about that. I am actually 'against' Ashes becoming more FG-Like for this reason mainly, even though ArcheAge already also is.

Also, what you said is so completely true I'm surprised that you don't see that we're saying the exact same thing.

Tab, if moved to the point where it is like a Fighting Game, is what I would want. You don't 'miss' in anywhere near the same way even in a 3D fighting game. The majority of FGs are fought on a 2D plane with some having some ability to sidestep, but this is limited.

Can you really not see how 'if you can't move sideways, but only into and out of range', and then you limit the range of a skill, that you have 'made a fighting game'? That's what 'Tab Target' gives, not what Action Combat generally gives.

At best you get 2 movement vectors. Your sensible opponents use 'tracking' moves that cover both vectors but have longer startup or extra vulnerability. That's already what we are seeing. 'Normals' that can be hit at close range, 'zoning' moves like the hammer that can be hit at longer ranges, 'AoE' that hits all close-by positions, 'backdashes' to avoid all of the above.

You have concluded that 'because Tab skills home or track' and apparently from your lack of experience of distance to target' being the deciding factor in effectiveness (and nothing else about your aim or position other than distance and startup) that Tab is skill-less. Literally all you have to do to make a Tab Target game 'a fighting game' is go 'this move hits at this distance, not closer, and not further'.

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Thank you, I will use these to expand on the post I made above if anyone wants me to, and this way I will not need to bring any of your own matches to the forums (I was never going to, but I would have felt like it was useless to bring a different Siegfried since I would expect you to argue that they were playing incorrectly, leaving me with no footage to fairly use at all).

I genuinely thank you for advancing the conversation just one step further, perhaps there is a chance we will yet be able to get more players to give things a chance and not 'assume that because there is more Action, that it will become something they don't like'.

I'll count on you for further assistance as well.

Btw, @Noaani @Azherae did EQ2/FF11 have character attacks/abilities that couldn't hit in close range but did hit in long range? Don't think L2 had those kinds of attacks. It was mainly "if you're in range to hit smth, you can hit it no matter how close your target is to you".

NiKr wrote: »

Btw, @Noaani @Azherae did EQ2/FF11 have character attacks/abilities that couldn't hit in close range but did hit in long range? Don't think L2 had those kinds of attacks. It was mainly "if you're in range to hit smth, you can hit it no matter how close your target is to you".

FF11 has very few of these for base classes.

What it more often did was change your accuracy or damage output based on the position relative to the enemy or another player in 3D space. Being a primarily PvE game, this was the preferred method. To clarify, there were certain abilities that required you to be 'behind another player' or positioned specifically relative to them otherwise, while also needing to be targeted at the enemy, and there was only a small spot where both of these things could be true.

It did, however, have multiple shorter range abilities that could be avoided, and spellcasting relied on you not being repositioned (if you were moved during your casting time, even by the enemy's knockback ability or similar, you would always be interrupted from your spellcasting).

Where this came up the most was actually in situations where you needed to hit multiple enemies in PvE and needed them all to stay within range of the same attack, but I assume almost all AoE works like that.

PvP was mostly 'dancing around at max range where your autoattack will hit', then 'when you have an ability with a shorter range, move into that range quickly and hope your opponent doesn't notice', or 'when you have an ability with a longer range, step back out of opponent's range so that you aren't taking damage while you do'.

It's definitely not a PvP game, no matter how many Ballista or Brenner Championship tournaments they hosted.

I see. Hope Ashes has some too, cause I feel like that could be a good skill-testing mechanic and make positioning gameplay even deeper.

NiKr wrote: »

I see. Hope Ashes has some too, cause I feel like that could be a good skill-testing mechanic and make positioning gameplay even deeper.

I don't think I mentioned it, but this was THE single most surprising and uplifting aspect of the last Combat reveal.

The Duckie Hammer didn't seem like it'd hit close up. I might be wrong about this, ofc.

Just seeing this made my mind immediately start to race with possibilities as to how they intended to implement certain things, while still remaining 'fair' in Hybrid Combat. It is, in short, what made me start to think 'Wait this might be the thing I was waiting for'.

Or well, the non P2W version (NWO already does quite a bit of this, but they still rely more on AoE).

Azherae wrote: »

Just seeing this made my mind immediately start to race with possibilities as to how they intended to implement certain things, while still remaining 'fair' in Hybrid Combat. It is, in short, what made me start to think 'Wait this might be the thing I was waiting for'.

Yeah, that hammer ability definitely fits this kind of mechanic, even though it's just more of a "hit this particular place" kind of thing rather than "you can hit within this range, but not directly under you", though when I think about it that's kiiiiind of the same thing?

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But wouldn't you say that tab's rotations have the same mechanic? You, in theory, can win pve/pvp by just using whatever abilities you have, but the higher the skill lvl goes the more you need to know proper combinations and order of button presses. So if you look at it just from the point of view of "you can either mash and win or be more strategical about it", then I'd say that both tab and action mmo have that.

At least in L2 quite a few mid pvp players would usually just use 2-3 abilities that served them well and never really needed more than that, but once you got into more difficult matchups (be it 1vMany or a bad RPS matchup or fighting against a better-geared person) you needed to use more abilities and/or use them in the correct way/order.

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All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance.

I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that.

Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design.

In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things.

Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY.

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It is only in your own mind that I would be opposed to this.

It is only in your own mind that I disagree with you on the goal. That may be difficult to accept, but I am here arguing for more of it, yes, for at least my own capacity.

You have a bit of a 'persecution complex', which I admit I have definitely not been successful at preventing. I am not against your concepts, I am against the way you make your arguments. Just stop misleading people. That's all I want.

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But fighting games don't 'CC you with every hit'. They have hits after which the attacker is NOT sufficiently plus for their combo to keep working.

Most of them don't have OTG damage, meaning that as soon as the strike set ends you are invincible until you stand up again and many of them prevent there from being any ambiguity about what the defender does in that moment.

Many change how plus you are based on whether or not your opponent hit with their move correctly, or if they counter hit.

I am really not trying to make fun of you, but every time you say something like this, I have to correct you for the few people paying attention to all this that might need a deeper understanding.

And for all such people... basically nothing Mag just said is true for many many reasons. Fighting games are entirely based on 'how much advantage you have after your opponent is hit' which determines what other moves you can safely use. Your opponent will either block or counter if you go for a move that takes longer to start than your last move 'CC'ed' them. Which in some cases is 'nearly any move' even if you HIT and were not blocked.

I really don't want to have to teach fighting games to a bunch of people who only barely care just so that they're inoculated against your misleading statements, @Mag7spy , but I am definitely the sort of person that begrudgingly will.

Seriously please just stop this.

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Well, that's fine, probably the best I can hope for, I guess.

I'm probably just baselessly worrying that Ashes somehow has no one on staff able to clarify the truths of the specifics.

If they have all the data and then choose that you're correct, so be it. But every time you say it, I'll have to respond with:

"Button Mashing is not a core design of Fighting Games."

Or rather, probably someone else will.

Also, you're not usually one who argues that Core Design is subjective? Is this a change in your perspective? BDO balance patches and so forth explicitly detail 'in which ways they are changing things' relative to what I'm talking about. If the developers/patch notes say that something is being changed because of their design perspectives, should I not refer to that as Core Design?

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But that's literally what people will always do to achieve the best results. "Where there's a will, there's a way" sort of thing. No matter how well-designed the game will be, people will definitely find the most optimal way of doing things. Yes, there might be some variety depending on what your opponent does, but your responses to those actions will still be predetermined if you've decided to be the very best like no one ever was .

I understand that this is not the way you play the game because you're not into hardcore challenges, but I'm pretty sure that this kind of gameplay is pretty much a requirement for anyone who is, in fact, into such challenges.

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But that depends on the skill of your opponent as well, which is the point being made here.

Since you're the only person I was actually addressing to start this whole mess, if you don't care about the specifics either, I'll just stop.