I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

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Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

Is this chaotic?

If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

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To address this part as clearly as possible.

Jormungand's skill use is limited to a set number of things, yes, but which moves Jormungand uses is COMPLETELY RANDOM .

And yes, that actually does mean that it is chaotic, unpredictable, hard to counter, reaction based, and you can die from RNG.

So, one more time.

1.Ashes has a lot of EQ Devs, EQ bosses can be so unpredictable that you die from RNG.
2. FFXI has bosses that are so unpredictable that you die from RNG.
3. Steven has specifically said that there will be random skill usage.

I will add to this that the mechanics of a boss in Ashes may change based on:

Changes in the nearby nodes.
Time of day.
Weather.
How well you did against the previous boss.

To someone from EQ2 or FFXI, this all sounds normal. I for one expect 'dying to RNG' to be part of Ashes raiding. I do not consider it bad design.

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You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players. [12] – Steven Sharif

Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds .

It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

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And to address this one separately:

Yes, this is what I understand Raiding to be like. This is what I hope raiding is like. This is the sort of thing I have seen the 'beginnings' of in Alpha-1.

I am not concerned that we will not get this style of Raiding based on either of those quotes.

Can you understand that it is not unreasonable for me to expect this FROM ASHES?

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Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

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Please be careful not to contradict yourself about what you consider good or bad.

I do not care about that video unless you plan to make a point with it. I refuse to make any inference from it. Focus please.

Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

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No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.

One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players. [12] – Steven Sharif

Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?

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This is fine, because that is your opinion. you have an opinion that I am putting a lot of emphasis on content changing.

So are we at 'there is a possibility that when Steven says that he thinks the compelling aspect of Ashes Raiding will be difficulty in achieving the content and in content changing, he means that the content will significantly change'?

You don't need to believe this means 'big changes' or 'small changes'. Only 'compelling and difficult' changes. Good enough?

EDIT: In case it is unclear, I have completely conceded the point about the word 'chaotic' to you and am no longer addressing it.

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No problem. I did say that I learned from watching your matches, after all.

Can you understand why my expectations are wild (not 'in check') and high, because of the games I come from? Can you understand why Noaani's expectations might also be 'wild' and high in comparison to yours?

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not asking this in order to 'start another whole argument based on it'. I'm stopping for now, I would just really like to end this on a positive note where we've both moved closer to the other's priors.

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Well, one step at a time, from both of us. It's up to Noaani if any 'step-taking' will happen from that end. Maybe tomorrow, who knows.

"Thanks for the match."

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There, fixed it for you

At this point I dearly hope that Ashes does in fact have such a difficult boss that guilds will not make any farming videos about it, while still farming it successfully. At which point I'd ask Mag to explain to me how ez it would be to "just show video proof" for the complexity of the boss Doubt that'll happen though

NiKr wrote: »

At this point I dearly hope that Ashes does in fact have such a difficult boss that guilds will not make any farming videos about it, while still farming it successfully. At which point I'd ask Mag to explain to me how ez it would be to "just show video proof" for the complexity of the boss Doubt that'll happen though

I forgot that I was supposed to provide this for you .

Back to checking for stealth frame-data nerfs in BDO...

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Just to amuse myself I shall ask you this. Who would make those guides? Could it, per chance, be the exact people I was talking about? The ones who'll be the very first to beat the boss? The ones who might wipe on said boss over a dozen times just to figure out how to beat it, exactly because FOR THEM there wouldn't be any guides to follow?