PvX tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward

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This has nothing to do with being a Pacifist.

For this discussion to even matter, the definitions of PvP and PvE player MUST refer to people who have explictly more skill or a better build for one of the two. Otherwise there's no need for any of it, which I would be glad for.

If you wish to perceive this as 'Well everyone should have the same ability to PvP gear/build wise and should aim for the same levels of skill', sure.

The PvE player would need a way to go 'I am going to use my skill with PvE against you whether you want to PvE or not' to the PvP player, for this to be 'balanced' because the PvP player has that option.

'Choosing' to PvP when you know you are disadvantaged due to build, what you practice, etc, simply because you do not have the option to do the other thing if your opponent chooses not to let you is what I am referring to here.

But if we are rejecting the very concept of 'PvE player' from even that perspective because that player type 'should not exist in Ashes', then all we have to do is hope that the game gets enough attention from players who don't mind 'My PvE skill only matters in a conflict if my opponent agrees to use it for the contest'.

And now, for a personal addition to this.

One of the largest problems with this, I think outright huge problems, is that higher PvE skill automatically puts many players in a situation where they are automatically disadvantaged in PvP against a player with less of it.

Let's use Alpha-1 as a simple example. Crabs on a beach, level 13-15.

High skill PvE player goes there at level 8 and starts racking up the exp.

Lower skill PvE player or one who doesn't have as good a build doesn't go there until level 11 or 12.

These two players could have literally the same build, gear, and PvP skill, and the LESS skilled PvE player would win their fight.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be like this, I'm simply adding it to the conceptual pile of reasons why PvE-focused players who build up those skills don't necessarily enjoy games like Ashes. Note it again. The player with the higher SKILL at one thing can have EQUAL skill to the other in PvP but because of their wish to push their PvE skill, they are disadvantaged in a PvP conflict anyway.

Azherae wrote: »

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be like this, I'm simply adding it to the conceptual pile of reasons why PvE-focused players who build up those skills don't necessarily enjoy games like Ashes. Note it again. The player with the higher SKILL at one thing can have EQUAL skill to the other in PvP but because of their wish to push their PvE skill, they are disadvantaged in a PvP conflict anyway.

This is why I hope Intrepid somehow manages to design mobs in such a way that fighting them wouldn't be too different from fighting humans. At the end of the day it's just some movement around and CCs/attacks.

And when PvE players realize that they can fight back against players the same way they would fight back against an agro mob who attacked them first. Obviously this doesn't include the gatherer part of the pve player spectrum, but those are protected by the corruption system (to a point) and would probably usually be on the lower adventure lvl side of progression so it's not like any pvper would be ready to just kill them.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be like this, I'm simply adding it to the conceptual pile of reasons why PvE-focused players who build up those skills don't necessarily enjoy games like Ashes. Note it again. The player with the higher SKILL at one thing can have EQUAL skill to the other in PvP but because of their wish to push their PvE skill, they are disadvantaged in a PvP conflict anyway.

This is why I hope Intrepid somehow manages to design mobs in such a way that fighting them wouldn't be too different from fighting humans. At the end of the day it's just some movement around and CCs/attacks.

And when PvE players realize that they can fight back against players the same way they would fight back against an agro mob who attacked them first. Obviously this doesn't include the gatherer part of the pve player spectrum, but those are protected by the corruption system (to a point) and would probably usually be on the lower adventure lvl side of progression so it's not like any pvper would be ready to just kill them.

I agree with your hope, but don't see the connection here other than maybe 'Make PvP and PvE so equivalent in what the experience is like that we don't consider the two skillsets to even be different'?

I'm sure they're working on it, it's not THAT hard, but then you are in territory that is pretty rough for the majority of players for a different reason.

Remember I told you a while ago that the ONE Dark Rift enemy in BDO that fights relatively close to how a player would, is the one they mark as 'Very Hard' in their rating system. So you'd be saying 'You need to have a level of gaming skill equal to a PvP player to take on harder content in this game'.

As a solution to literally every 'problem' this game theoretically has (except not really) I'll take it.

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Please see personal note added at top of this page and add any related opinion you have, if not already doing so.

Azherae wrote: »

I'm sure they're working on it, it's not THAT hard, but then you are in territory that is pretty rough for the majority of players for a different reason.

Remember I told you a while ago that the ONE Dark Rift enemy in BDO that fights relatively close to how a player would, is the one they mark as 'Very Hard' in their rating system. So you'd be saying 'You need to have a level of gaming skill equal to a PvP player to take on harder content in this game'.

As a solution to literally every 'problem' this game theoretically has (except not really) I'll take it.

I mean, this could apply only to the "juicy" mobs at higher lvls. As in, if you haven't learned how you character plays by then - you should be fine with farming weak mobs that don't give you great loot.

I know that statement reeks of elitism, but that kind of thing applies to literally every mmo out there. Your skill is not great enough to participate in this raid? You don't get the loot from it, and usually that's the best loot. Apply that same logic to open world mobs and equate those mobs to pvp, and you'll have yourself true pvx players. Well, out of all the people who do understand how their character plays and manage to farm such mobs. At which point, in theory, to them the pvp shouldn't be any different than pve, which to me seems like the perfect pvx setup that Ashes should be striving for.

Keep the game difficult and give the players the means to overcome said difficulty. Not everyone will, but that's where you say "ashes is not for everyone", except now it'd still appeal to all the hardcore pvers out there.

Now I realize that it's not as easy as I explained it there, with Dygz being the biggest example of why. There'll always be people who dislike pvp out of principle and that's ok, there'll still be a ton of other features in the game that they can interact with.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'm sure they're working on it, it's not THAT hard, but then you are in territory that is pretty rough for the majority of players for a different reason.

Remember I told you a while ago that the ONE Dark Rift enemy in BDO that fights relatively close to how a player would, is the one they mark as 'Very Hard' in their rating system. So you'd be saying 'You need to have a level of gaming skill equal to a PvP player to take on harder content in this game'.

As a solution to literally every 'problem' this game theoretically has (except not really) I'll take it.

I mean, this could apply only to the "juicy" mobs at higher lvls. As in, if you haven't learned how you character plays by then - you should be fine with farming weak mobs that don't give you great loot.

I know that statement reeks of elitism, but that kind of thing applies to literally every mmo out there. Your skill is not great enough to participate in this raid? You don't get the loot from it, and usually that's the best loot. Apply that same logic to open world mobs and equate those mobs to pvp, and you'll have yourself true pvx players. Well, out of all the people who do understand how their character plays and manage to farm such mobs. At which point, in theory, to them the pvp shouldn't be any different than pve, which to me seems like the perfect pvx setup that Ashes should be striving for.

Keep the game difficult and give the players the means to overcome said difficulty. Not everyone will, but that's where you say "ashes is not for everyone", except now it'd still appeal to all the hardcore pvers out there.

Now I realize that it's not as easy as I explained it there, with Dygz being the biggest example of why. There'll always be people who dislike pvp out of principle and that's ok, there'll still be a ton of other features in the game that they can interact with.

This entirely misrepresent's Dygz's position, and I have to call you on it precisely because it is actually extremely relevant in my opinion.

The main thing required for PvP and PvE players to interact 'fairly' in many situations is more limits on the PvP players so that they do not have too much freedom to overstep the standard 'rules of environment'. PvE being 'Player vs Environment', which includes Mobs but not 'other players'. The reason it does not include 'other players' is primarily so that those players get to have their own additional freedom, design wise.

Building a PvX game is not hard if the 'PvP' players are willing to accept certain limits to make them more 'Environmental'. I cannot say for certain, but Dygz has never indicated that this would not be acceptable and even possibly an incentive to interact with them at times.

That's a whole design document, though. The point is that your suggestion is the opposite. Make the Environment more like Players. This is generally used BY players in different ways. In fact, PvE games often have stuff like this because Players then just use the Environment against each other and never need to have direct conflict between two characters. And in those games, they can and do often use it for griefing too.

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Well, if it is relevant or gives you any 'comfort' at all, my group and I are definitely 'full PvX players'.

The main reason I don't mention it is because the response I usually get from 'hardcore' players is to 'assign us to the other camp' if I bring up anything I think doesn't support PvX properly.

I hope there are a lot of players like me, but I'm starting to worry that Ashes isn't actually designed for that player type. This worry doesn't have much basis, though, moreso 'born of the lack of information from Intrepid'. It could be that most of the 'hardcores' are going to be the ones very disappointed.

I think I hope that's not true, but I'm not sure how good/popular Ashes will be if it isn't.

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This is no longer true, as AI can just be trained to do it now using some fairly simple systems. Depending on the complexity of the game, it hasn't been true for a while.

On average, humans do not play as skillfully as AI, so unless you are referring to the fact that it is difficult to engage AI in conversation and negotiate peaceful resolutions with said AI (I kind of assume you are), it's probably best not to claim this, as it's misleading.

To address all the responses and related comments here: I'm not even talking about super complex AIs that copy humans exactly, I'm just saying that giving mobs a bit more mobility than just "stand here and move your arms" or at the very best "keep running after the target and hit them". And give them abilities that are similar to players' in their effect. Them being stuns, dashes, buffs, heals, etc.

I'm sure there's been at least a few mmos that have done this already, I'm just saying to have such mobs in Ashes too and make them difficult. A PvE challenge, if you will.

And to address @Dygz directly, yes, I know that you don't partake in hardcore pve either. Which is why I said that there'd still be a ton of other content in the game. And just like you wouldn't participate in smth like a WoW mythic or a FF14 ultimate - you'd just avoid such mobs in Ashes (that is if you do even decide to play it).

Maybe it's just my L2 bias, but I don't really understand why people differentiate players from mobs both hit you and you can hit both, that's it. Which is why my main assumption on this topic is that the reason for the differentiation is the difficulty of combat. And that is why I suggested what I suggested.

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Then I don't really understand your point of engagement.

We probably can all agree and accept that PvE-focus as a choice being subject to the consequences of that choice is fine within Ashes.

The question then becomes 'what is the consequence of the choice of PvP-focus as a choice?'

As long as they're similar, I've got no complaints.

To illustrate, if a PvP focused player comes to a farming spot where someone is flexing their PvE skill, chooses to fight that player, and the player thinks 'This person probably can't farm this same spot, they'll die due to insufficient PvE skill', the answer is literally to get out of the way and let them try. Maybe help them out and make a friend even.

My only problem is that the way most games are designed, the PvP player just moves into the area when they are higher level, or clears much slower so they don't die, but still attempt to hold the spot via PvP even when they aren't so great at it. I don't think Ashes has this problem, if the opponent has less PvE skill, just disrupt their battle by attacking them so the enemy Mob wins. Don't need a giant pile of PvP skill for that.

However when we are talking about gathering, suddenly this matters a lot. So I ask you this. If you are trying to gather and my group of 5 comes along and says 'you can't gather here, move along', will you fight?

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Yeah, I should've been more detailed in my mentioning of you. I was mainly talking about the owpvp stuff. That is, you're just minding your own business and someone comes up to you and tries to fight you. You have a very limited pvp timer for each day and as you said in this post you dislike pvp because humans are too ruthless compared to most (if not all) mobs - which means that you wouldn't want to fight back in that situation. And I'd assume there's a lot of people with similar mindsets, which is what I was referencing when saying that "people don't pvp out of principle".

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Note that in that case I was mostly targeting the idea of 'interest', not 'skill'.

Let's assume for whatever reason that someone was so incredibly skilled at PvE that they were ALWAYS the highest level person on the server. That they always had the best gear. This would be a form of balance, but even they might not have interest if the reason for this was 'this game is easy and I can just breeze through it'.

In fact, let's assume that PvP-focused players, by their nature, in Ashes, are ALWAYS underleveled and undergeared relative to PvE-focused players that start at the same time and play the same amount. The game's goal (in my mind) if trying to make the game PvX would be to somehow incentivize those PvE players to help the PvP player gear up, increase PvE skill if necessary, gain levels.

I would expect PvP players to have less interest in a game like this. To 'desire for gear and potions to be less effective' perhaps. But maybe not, so if that turns out to be the way it is (I see this as a balance requjrement, the PvP player has more skill but less gear so they lose), then so be it.

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I guess I should've been more detailed there as well
You say yourself that

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So I meant that you wouldn't interact with the mob gameplay of hardcore pve content. Because to most people, when they hear "hardcore pve" they think about some difficult dungeons with difficult mobs/bosses.

Yes, you might explore those locations while minimizing the mob interactions, and that in itself could be seen as hardcore exploration due to its high risks, but I was talking about the mobs themselves, because the conversation so far has been about the difference between fighting a mob and fighting a human (well, at least I've been trying to talk about this).

And afaik stuff like mythics and ultimates either have the exact same locations as the weaker versions of that content or have such high skill/effort requirements from each member that you wouldn't be taken to those locations just because the raid would fail if you couldn't fully participate in the mob part of the content.

And I'd personally want mobs to be as ruthless as people, but, as you said, you wouldn't play such a game either, which kinda brings us back to my line of "people don't pvp out of principle". If mobs are as close to players in their difficulty as possible - you won't play with such mobs, which tells me that you "don't pvp out of principle" even if that "pvp" comes in the form of mobs. That's completely understandable and fine, but that is exactly why I mentioned you in that original post.

Azherae wrote: »

In fact, let's assume that PvP-focused players, by their nature, in Ashes, are ALWAYS underleveled and undergeared relative to PvE-focused players that start at the same time and play the same amount. The game's goal (in my mind) if trying to make the game PvX would be to somehow incentivize those PvE players to help the PvP player gear up, increase PvE skill if necessary, gain levels.

Imo the goal of a PvX game should be to not separate those at all. Make the "pvpers" participate in hardcore pve and make the "pvers" fight in pvp.

But I realize that we live in a too dualismic of society for that to ever happen in the way I want it to. Both sides will just complain that they're being made to do smth they don't want and will just leave, which to me is very sad