DPS Meter Megathread

It's the same people making pro-DPS meter arguments because the people who agree with them don't have to do any work for the argument in favor of DPSMeters to be made well. Aerlana, Azherae, and Noaani you are doing a great job, keep it up.

In a game of Ashes underlying design, the reason content is cleared (for the first time) faster by those who can build trackers/parsers is that they are having more fun figuring out how to do it their own way. They therefore also try more, and also repeat it more.

The solution is to specialize the content, which is achieved with or without the trackers people build, one's hope as a dev is that the players who build trackers/parsers are having so much fun doing it their respective ways that they do not care as much.

Specialization of content IS more work, yes, but I believe it's a standard investment. Players who don't build trackers would be more likely to lose interest in nonspecialized simplistic content (from the PvE side) as well.

I mean, the whole discussion comes down to this:

• Intrepid say: we don't want addons/meters/trackers and want to forbid them
• Tracker people say: we don't fucking care about that, ya ain't gonna stop us
• Non-tracker people say: the tracker people will be using trackers to clear hard content and will require us to use them too if we want to join them (or require us to adhere to what it says), which we consider toxic

To me this sounds same as entitled pvers demanding pve servers or entitled pvpers demanding no corruption servers. The only difference is that Intrepid can completely limit either of those entitled people through mechanics and be up-front about it. And they have, with their "not for everyone" line.

And the problem mainly comes from Intrepid saying they want to have complex bosses w/o going into any kind of detail as to how they want to achieve that, and the tracker people saying that no boss can be difficult enough if it wasn't designed with tacker people in mind.

In other words, after these 141 pages, Intrepid just need to finally explain their boss design and either tell tracker people "you're included in the "everyone" that we talk about" or say "we realize that in order to have properly difficult bosses we'll need to provide particular tools, so tell us which ones those are".

NiKr wrote: »

I mean, the whole discussion comes down to this:

• Intrepid say: we don't want addons/meters/trackers and want to forbid them
• Tracker people say: we don't fucking care about that, ya ain't gonna stop us
• Non-tracker people say: the tracker people will be using trackers to clear hard content and will require us to use them too if we want to join them (or require us to adhere to what it says), which we consider toxic

To me this sounds same as entitled pvers demanding pve servers or entitled pvpers demanding no corruption servers. The only difference is that Intrepid can completely limit either of those entitled people through mechanics and be up-front about it. And they have, with their "not for everyone" line.

And the problem mainly comes from Intrepid saying they want to have complex bosses w/o going into any kind of detail as to how they want to achieve that, and the tracker people saying that no boss can be difficult enough if it wasn't designed with tacker people in mind.

In other words, after these 141 pages, Intrepid just need to finally explain their boss design and either tell tracker people "you're included in the "everyone" that we talk about" or say "we realize that in order to have properly difficult bosses we'll need to provide particular tools, so tell us which ones those are".

I do not intend to use a Tracker for Ashes if the desire of the developers is that we do not use them.

I do not intend to compete with other people that I will expect to be using trackers either, though, especially not in an owPvP game (it does not matter if a given thing is instanced or not).

See what I'm getting at here?

Azherae wrote: »

See what I'm getting at here?

That you won't play the game if Intrepid doesn't allow trackers cause people like Noaani will definitely use trackers no matter what Intrepid say and you'd have to compete with them then which you don't intend to do?

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

See what I'm getting at here?

That you won't play the game if Intrepid doesn't allow trackers cause people like Noaani will definitely use trackers no matter what Intrepid say and you'd have to compete with them then which you don't intend to do?

I'm simply saying that anything that says 'Intrepid won't allow trackers so we don't need to discuss this', leads only to a situation in which everyone who follows the Vision is playing a self-imposed challenge run.

I don't see a reason to take a competitive game seriously in that situation, do you?

EDIT: Why hate on P2W/RMT but not Tracker usage? Oh, wait, y'all don't want Tracker usage, fine. Can you stop it? No, but people can be convinced you can. Yay. At least RMT, you could actually stop.

Azherae wrote: »

I don't see a reason to take a competitive game seriously in that situation, do you?

I meaaaaaan, I'm different like that . That's been my permanent state at all times In L2 I went against the basic meta of my class and still won against people who followed it. And I loved fighting uphill because that's just what's interesting to me. Except my interest doesn't influence everyone else in the game, while using trackers does, because as Noaani likes to say "devs will have to adjust for that in future design", which will influence everyone in the game.

And as I see it, if everyone's under the same "challenge" then it is still a competition. A couple's 3-legged race can be won super easily by a single person running normally, but if you forbid those single people from doing so (because those are the rules) - you have yourself a 3-legged competition.

But we've kinda discussed this before. Everyone has their preferences in gaming, which is why this has been going on for 140+ pages. Noaani and everyone else has just been discussing their opinions and preferences back and forth, which is an endless activity.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I don't see a reason to take a competitive game seriously in that situation, do you?

I meaaaaaan, I'm different like that . That's been my permanent state at all times In L2 I went against the basic meta of my class and still won against people who followed it. And I loved fighting uphill because that's just what's interesting to me. Except my interest doesn't influence everyone else in the game, while using trackers does, because as Noaani likes to say "devs will have to adjust for that in future design", which will influence everyone in the game.

And as I see it, if everyone's under the same "challenge" then it is still a competition. A couple's 3-legged race can be won super easily by a single person running normally, but if you forbid those single people from doing so (because those are the rules) - you have yourself a 3-legged competition.

But we've kinda discussed this before. Everyone has their preferences in gaming, which is why this has been going on for 140+ pages. Noaani and everyone else has just been discussing their opinions and preferences back and forth, which is an endless activity.

Ah, this is sorta sad, I feel like if even you believe this, then Mag's brute force 'tactic' actually worked.

I thought it would take a better turn, for example when Dolyem shifted to the understanding that you can't actually even detect these.

Cause that's the core of it, but I guess if you repeat irrelevance enough times, even someone like you blanks out the actual point?

Or is it that you simply ignore the potential for the tracker even if the tracker is absolutely undetectable? I guess you could also 'believe that there is a way to design a game so that a tracker doesn't help' but then I feel like it's worked twice over.

Would you like a video on the current state of AimBots, or is that a waste too?

EDIT: You can just search Arduino Aimbot Valorant. Enjoy.

Azherae wrote: »

Or is it that you simply ignore the potential for the tracker even if the tracker is absolutely undetectable? I guess you could also 'believe that there is a way to design a game so that a tracker doesn't help' but then I feel like it's worked twice over.

Oh, I know perfectly well that they're untraceable. I'm past that point. Which is why I said that I need Intrepid to decide what they want to do. If they're fine with losing the tracker people as a part of their target audience - that would be completely fine with me, but you or Noaani would probably find the game utterly boring because bosses won't be designed in a way that would be satisfying for you.

But again, that decision can only come after they reveal what their boss design is exactly. Just like Dygz fell off the game after the open seas update, I'd assume any hardcore tracker users would say that they are no longer interested in the game if Intrepid explicitly state "we're gonna track how people do the content. If a group of people easily clears it, while every other raid struggles - we will keep designing the game for those who're still struggling".

We have not received permission from Songcaller to share the quoted post.

It's not about the nerfs though. It's about a small group of people that use an outside of the game tool that lets them to beat the content much easier than they would've otherwise. So instead of appealing purely to this group of people Intrepid could disregard their opinion and just keep making the content that's still difficult for the 99% of players.

But again though, that would only work if Intrepid drop the "<10% clearable" thing they promised, because otherwise they'd need to appeal to exactly that small group of people who use trackers no matter what Intrepid say just because they don't care about what rules the game has.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Or is it that you simply ignore the potential for the tracker even if the tracker is absolutely undetectable? I guess you could also 'believe that there is a way to design a game so that a tracker doesn't help' but then I feel like it's worked twice over.

Oh, I know perfectly well that they're untraceable. I'm past that point. Which is why I said that I need Intrepid to decide what they want to do. If they're fine with losing the tracker people as a part of their target audience - that would be completely fine with me, but you or Noaani would probably find the game utterly boring because bosses won't be designed in a way that would be satisfying for you.

But again, that decision can only come after they reveal what their boss design is exactly. Just like Dygz fell off the game after the open seas update, I'd assume any hardcore tracker users would say that they are no longer interested in the game if Intrepid explicitly state "we're gonna track how people do the content. If a group of people easily clears it, while every other raid struggles - we will keep designing the game for those who're still struggling".

I don't see how it is a decision?

Less interesting bosses are just more reason in a competitive game for the sort of person who does this, to go from 'Parser' to 'bot'.



Parsers are for fun. If you take the fun away from the sort of person who makes this , they find their fun in making it. That's why there's, y'know, a site.

The last thirty pages might as well have been called "Why do you want to lose to bots?"

(The video implies that the webcam method is beyond our capacity now, but I don't know why they have that conclusion as it is obviously not, it just requires a combination of the sort of thing from the link with one specific camera-to-monitor frequency-sync, which is entirely mechanical)

The only time I've written one of these was for precisely the reason given. Just a dumb little FaceBook game that was kind of fun to design your character but boss battles were tedious 'wait for animation, click next button depending on what boss did'.

Fighting the boss the first time was always done without the 'cheat' running because it was FUN. Only when I had it figured out and 'had it on farm' would it be time to go 'ok right, set the correct parameters for beating it and farm it, and if it manages to flag a scenario that my parameters/code don't handle, great! Time for more fun! Otherwise, go do something else and collect rewards in 20m'.

Even if all the hardcore tracker users leave they will be replaced with advanced botters instead due to the design .

How is this possibly better?

(Mag will tell you that it doesn't work in PvP. I write PvP logic all the time, I think I've mentioned it before, it's useful for practice opponents, more useful than people)

We have not received permission from Songcaller to share the quoted post.

A single digit percentage of the population will be capable of defeating certain content.[9]
There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[9] – Steven Sharif

EDIT: This isn't so much a counterpoint as 'a reminder of what exactly is being discussed'. No harm in posting it again.

Azherae wrote: »

How is this possibly better?

If undetectable botters can easily beat any boss that Intrepid makes, then how would Intrepid even counter that? Trackers wouldn't change that in any way.

If Intrepid sticks with the open world boss goal and then the botters create bots that can both kill the difficult boss and anyone who comes to pvp them - at that point I'd just say let them, because there's literally nothing you can do.

I guess I'm a defeatist when it comes to that kind of a scenario? Cause I literally see no way where Intrepid could combat an untraceable bot raid that excels at both pve and pvp. Designing with trackers in mind would not change that situation, because the botters would be literally the same as you or Noaani. They'll figure out how to beat the boss, write the bot for it and go do it. And no one will stop them because the bots are literal best players in the game (allegedly).

So if the ultimate result is "botters will win no matter what you do", then I'd rather play w/o trackers in the game and enjoy it as long as I can for what it is. To me, those botters would be ruining the game in the same way the tracker people would if Intrepid stays with the "no addon/meter/tracker" rule, because both would be breaking the rules of the game to have their fun, completely disregarding what other people think about it. But maybe I'm just too big of a stickler for the rules, or just like the currently presented rules and want everyone to follow them and live happily ever after. Though I know that no one will, cause people don't care if their fun ruins someone else's fun.