DPS Meter Megathread

Post by Aerlana on 2022-09-26 17:14:41

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Post by Strevi on 2022-09-26 17:15:02

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Post by Sapiverenus on 2022-09-26 17:16:23

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-09-26 17:19:20

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I'm still amazed that yall are entertaining that troll. Yall are too good and kind for this world o:)

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 17:21:41

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Post by Aerlana on 2022-09-26 17:23:50

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 17:27:22

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Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 17:28:58

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I'm not sure how to tell you this, but it's possible for those two things to actually not be connected.
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At least one Dev on Ashes' team is highly likely to in fact, be...

The GOAT.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 17:30:22

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Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 17:31:32

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I'm still amazed that yall are entertaining that troll. Yall are too good and kind for this world o:)

Trolls are incredibly useful for lurkers because they, by nature, must take things to extremes. If one can avoid getting too mad or derailed by them, they are a useful medium with which to improve the growth of a community and its knowledge.

Like manure.

Post by Songcaller on 2022-09-26 17:35:21

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-09-26 17:37:02

Btw, I came up with the perfect anti-tracker design! No stats! Only block and counter abilities, but on a huge variety scale. I imagined it as "rune-based". Mobs/bosses would have these kinds of circles on them
kmwc6f3gkirc.png

And players' abilities would be able to remove a single rune from the circle. The mob would die once the full circle is gone (bosses would have multiple).

Augments would add half a rune onto abilities and gear would add a half too (each piece its own). Half runes would be applied the same way a whole one would, so synergies between classes and gear builds would work just fine.

Tanks would be putting protective runes on people (cause mob/boss atks' have their own rune sets).
Bards would be creating buff rune sets (against environment hazards, auras, adds, etc) and would conjure anti-sets to prevent rune regeneration on targets.
Clerics would refresh those buffs to keep everyone alive.
DPS classes would have different sets of runes on their abilities, so you'd have good and bad matchups with different mobs (which could then be countered by augments and gear builds). Mobs would also regen their stuff at different speeds and have different amounts of particular sets, so the matchups could potentially be impossible for some raid setups.

The same rules would apply in pvp. Except the RPS balancing for classes would be even more pronounced, but also better countered by builds. Gear would be purely horizontal because of that and crafter would be able to add custom runes too.

In other words, the only things that would have to be changed in the game is the stats and this addition of runes. PvE would just be a visual puzzle, with no combat log feedback, so it and any trackers that might use it would be useless.

I look forward to your feedback on this definitely amazing idea, which I will read when I wake up :) And if there is in fact a way to utilize a tracker in that kind of system, I'd be glad to hear how (mainly so I could come up with a counter to that method :D ).

Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 17:39:29

Btw, I came up with the perfect anti-tracker design! No stats! Only block and counter abilities, but on a huge variety scale. I imagined it as "rune-based". Mobs/bosses would have these kinds of circles on them
kmwc6f3gkirc.png

And players' abilities would be able to remove a single rune from the circle. The mob would die once the full circle is gone (bosses would have multiple).

Augments would add half a rune onto abilities and gear would add a half too (each piece its own). Half runes would be applied the same way a whole one would, so synergies between classes and gear builds would work just fine.

Tanks would be putting protective runes on people (cause mob/boss atks' have their own rune sets).
Bards would be creating buff rune sets (against environment hazards, auras, adds, etc) and would conjure anti-sets to prevent rune regeneration on targets.
Clerics would refresh those buffs to keep everyone alive.
DPS classes would have different sets of runes on their abilities, so you'd have good and bad matchups with different mobs (which could then be countered by augments and gear builds). Mobs would also regen their stuff at different speeds and have different amounts of particular sets, so the matchups could potentially be impossible for some raid setups.

The same rules would apply in pvp. Except the RPS balancing for classes would be even more pronounced, but also better countered by builds. Gear would be purely horizontal because of that and crafter would be able to add custom runes too.

In other words, the only things that would have to be changed in the game is the stats and this addition of runes. PvE would just be a visual puzzle, with no combat log feedback, so it and any trackers that might use it would be useless.

I look forward to your feedback on this definitely amazing idea, which I will read when I wake up :) And if there is in fact a way to utilize a tracker in that kind of system, I'd be glad to hear how (mainly so I could come up with a counter to that method :D ).

I already have a tracker for this type.

This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly.

If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved.

This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'.

lmk if you would like a code snippet.

Post by Hinotori on 2022-09-26 17:48:59

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-09-26 17:50:53

I already have a tracker for this type.

This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly.

If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved.

This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'.

lmk if you would like a code snippet.
You're too quick with responses! I haven't even gone to sleep yet. Would the bots still work if the game required you to use both action and tab combat? Cause if yes, then I don't really see how those kinds of bots wouldn't just dominate a game like Ashes.

As I saw it, the combat system itself (mechanically that is) wouldn't have to change, only the interactions of ability effects would be different and you'd have no stats so if the boss did a quick two-hit attack against a player who didn't have proper rune defense and didn't dodge - that'd be an instakill.

If bots can execute combat at the same lvl, then I'm sure we'll see a ton of them in Ashes pve.

And now I'm definitely going to bed cause my cat is sitting between me and my monitor cause she's waiting for me to go to bed.

Post by Ace1234 on 2022-09-26 17:56:18

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Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 17:59:00

I already have a tracker for this type.

This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly.

If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved.

This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'.

lmk if you would like a code snippet.
You're too quick with responses! I haven't even gone to sleep yet. Would the bots still work if the game required you to use both action and tab combat? Cause if yes, then I don't really see how those kinds of bots wouldn't just dominate a game like Ashes.

As I saw it, the combat system itself (mechanically that is) wouldn't have to change, only the interactions of ability effects would be different and you'd have no stats so if the boss did a quick two-hit attack against a player who didn't have proper rune defense and didn't dodge - that'd be an instakill.

If bots can execute combat at the same lvl, then I'm sure we'll see a ton of them in Ashes pve.

And now I'm definitely going to bed cause my cat is sitting between me and my monitor cause she's waiting for me to go to bed.

Well, sleep well.

For others, and whenever NiKr awakens, the bots would still work if the game required you to use both kinds of combat.

Explaining how to create gameplay that bots cannot do is a touchy subject among many players because of the fact that what limits bots isn't what many players think it is (or want it to be).

Most games are now an 'input output system' because that's what many average players can handle. You see X under Y condition, you do Z. That's where Tool Assisted Speedruns come from. The main thing that stops Bots is the requirement to think ahead (or recognize and track things that are in the past and also explicitly no longer on screen relative to things that MIGHT happen in the future.).

On this point, Hostile Design works well, but not well enough, because bots are better at tracking stuff that is in the past and no longer on screen than players, so to stop bots, you have to frustrate players MORE than bots, and the bots still dominate.

For this reason, increasing the 'number of conditions' doesn't deter most bots. This is why only 'high speed and obfuscation of movement' in the Action Combat part of games seems to matter. But then you're still frustrating many players more than you're actually stopping bots.

Bots are stopped by creating layered scenarios where they must anticipate a probabilistic sequence without sufficient training data. These days, that's the only way.

Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 18:06:14

@Ace1234

Thank you for the summary.

Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.

(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).

Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time :|

Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 18:24:18

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 18:28:04

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Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 18:30:44

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I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me.

Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself.

I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes . Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 19:13:25

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Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 19:25:32

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That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 19:39:35

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 19:40:58

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Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 19:47:30

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Yes I understand that you believe that, and I'm asking you just one thing.

I can make it so that when you block, SOMETIMES you should use your fastest move to defend yourself, and sometimes you should not use it or I will be guaranteed to do 1/3 of your health in damage, and the only way you will know which of those things happened is if you can somehow figure out which Active Frame of MY move hit, within 1/3 of a second.

I would like to understand how YOU do this, and how you believe a person is supposed to do this. Remember, I, the attacker, am controlling which thing happens in some VERY subtle way. If you would like a video I can provide it. Or to rephrase it as a multiple choice question if you will humor me, here are the answers I can think of:

a) That is impossible to do, for the attacker, because that's not how fighting games work. (this is the trick answer, don't pick this one, because I can prove it is how they work)
b) That is bad design if the attacker can ever do this in an ambiguous way
c) People can just tell one frame difference at the moment it happens
d) I have never played a game like that and I would need to think about it more
e) Other (Please Specify)

I don't wanna derail here, but you keep saying I'm manipulative or dishonest and I would like to clear THAT up with you at least.

Post by Songcaller on 2022-09-26 19:54:28

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Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 19:55:35

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Post by Azherae on 2022-09-26 19:55:35

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I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead.

If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers?

This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers.

Post by Mag7spy on 2022-09-26 19:56:21

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