To the Action Combat Fans

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Here's the problem with the way you approach this based on what I've seen in other threads and rechecked from the last conversation.

If a game has Action Healing, even if it could be an MMO, it probably isn't. The reason is often almost exactly where we are right now. It's hard to get certain types of player to want 'Action Healing'. So if I name a MOBA, which I consider to have combat equivalent to many MMOs, I would expect the response to be 'MMOs only'. If I name an 'FPS', same issue. If I name an MMO in which the FEEL is close to Action but Tab Target or Softlock Target is valid, then I'd have to prove/justify that I would have done it without that or enjoyed it more, and I have no way to prove it.

Otherwise what use is it? I could go 'I liked healing in WildStar', it doesn't gain either of us anything unless I can 'prove' that I enjoy Wildstar's healing specifically for the Action elements. Is anything less 'MMO' than WildStar even 'acceptable'? Can either of us gain anything from the interaction?

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That depends on the game, hence my other comment in the other thread.

If things are moving, 'how to aim' is also knowledge, and it is a type that some people feel better with, prefer, and consider important for balance.

The skills are different but mostly equal. The person being addressed just doesn't consider Tab to take skill so we get into this side of it. But one can enjoy the aiming and the moving and the predicting that Action Healing provides, and then want a benefit to that (which doesn't have to be related to how much healing you output, it could just be a benefit to the aiming and moving and predicting so you have even more fun).

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QED. @DarkTides

It may be worth noting that from prior experiences, I for one (and some others) are not sure that Mag has ever played any Tab games at a level where the skill was required. With no ArcheAge to compare from, it's harder to see the point, for sure.

But @BlackBrony is right also. If I am sitting back playing heal whack-a-mole, even if it is made quite hard (and it usually is not, which makes me pass on a LOT of games), I am not using the same skills or having the same experience as others in an Action game. I shouldn't have to play DPS in order to have the same experience as others and have it matter.

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As you know I have no intention of arguing with you directly or making comments about your skill exactly. I'm just rebutting your claims about the skill-lessness. I am aware that the skills required for Tab games are not skills you value.

I believe you can also agree that you don't think PvE in Tab games can require more skill than Action games? Is it fair to say that based on everything we've discussed in the past? But right now we're talking about Healing, and the skill involved. So I'll ask you this.

Is Tab Target Healing skilled or not?

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So I'm not sure what your point is, in that case.

If Tab healing requires much less skill because Tab Combat requires less skill, why should we distinguish one from the other? Shouldn't Action Healing be the same as Action Ranger stuff?

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In L2 any rogue could remove your target, or at the very least change it to another target than himself. Barely anyone used the "tab" function (at least in my experience), so you had to click on the rogue's character to retarget him again or you'd have to receive a basic attack from him for the game to autotarget you (rogues barely ever made basic attacks, unless they had no mp).

Rogues always tried to move behind your back, because some of their abilities only worked there, so the rogues would be constantly repositioning themselves.

If you ever only concentrated on your ability bar, you'd most likely die within seconds of doing so w/o doing any real damage to the rogue, because you would've lost his target and would stop casting abilities.

And that's if you were fighting him 1v1. If it was a bigger fight and you, say, were trying to kill the enemy healer, the rogue could change your target and your mana would be wasted on someone else instead. Tanks could agro your target onto them too and even had magic reflect buffs so you might've killed yourself if you weren't paying attention. Both of those abilities could be done at a range so it's not like you could just pay attention to anyone who was directly beside you.

In other words, tab targeting can require the same type of skills as the action one, it just has to be designed properly and with pvp in mind. Oh, also, in action combat you'd still be able to let out your abilities, so you'd just have to shift the camera a bit and you'd probably still hit the enemy with your aoes, while in tab you'd either be doing literally nothing or you'd be wasting mana on a target that you didn't want to hit. So imo it required even more skill than action combat

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I don't think anyone would accept the type of Tab Targeting you seem to be worried about, though, and Ranger is exactly the reason.

Ranger should never be able to shoot BEHIND them, particularly in a game where forward walkspeed and back walkspeed are not equal. That's just ridiculous. All the Tab Target games I play have a cone in front of you where if your Tab Target is not in it, your abilities just don't fire at all.

Spells don't work like that in all of those games, but spells in those games have casting time where the caster can't move at all, so it isn't the same. A standard 'projectile' spell shouldn't have a huge casting time and therefore also probably shouldn't be able to hit a Target out of view.

Ashes is an immediate no-go for a lot of people if somehow Ranger shots hit outside of a 75-90 degree cone in front of them, so keeping things 'on target' is always important, equivalent to soft lock for melee anyway.

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But this is exactly what I'm talking about. You said

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L2's forced detarget/retarget requires you to pay attention to your entire screen and not just your rotations. It needs you to react as soon as your targeting changes in any way. It needs you to track your preferred target so that you can immediately retarget them (L2 pvp videos show that everyone is always moving). And your aiming must be more precise, because the amount of pixels an enemy character takes up on your screen in L2 is way lower than bdo's or even NW's amount.

And considering how much your target has moved, you might have to first move your camera, then find their char on the screen, then click on them and only then can you attack them again. While in action you do all of that with literally one move of the mouse.

I'd say that NW's headshoting comes close to L2's detargeting interactions, mainly because you also have to track just a few pixels on your screen in order to attack in the best way possible.

Here's the abilities I'm talking about

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Which is why I'm saying that even tab target games can require you to have the same sort of skills you listed. And I really hope Ashes has that kind of design, though, from what I saw in the ranger video, it doesn't look like it will.

I'm definitely gonna be asking for as much targeting gameplay as possible in my feedback.

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So (and I really hope you can see that I'm not just trying to make you look bad by saying this), if you haven't really ever experienced detargeting in Tab games, maybe you just haven't played any of what you would consider the Good Tab games?

Maybe just assume in this sort of conversation, all the people who prefer Tab have played those games, so they don't understand why you keep saying that Tab doesn't require skill?

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I have a better question, what major mmo is a pvp tab target one? Did AA have detargeting? Cause I feel like that's the only other tab pvp mmo out there.

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Oof you make me wanna give up...

NiKr has specifically detailed how detargeting affected L2 PvP, by personal experience, before.

I don't know what you even consider 'Major MMOs', Lineage ain't THAT niche.

Just gimme a list of what you call 'Major MMOs' then...

Are you trying to say that you only play Major MMOs?

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All I'm asking is that you recognize that the people who are here, interested in this specific, Hybrid Combat MMO, might not be 'the majority of people' whose main experience is 'Major MMOs'.

Ashes is conceptually born from ArcheAge, Lineage, EQ2 and MAYBE FF11 (not sure, Jeff didn't mention it much).

So the forum is possibly a lot of Lineage, AA, EQ2 and FFXI players, right?

I don't really think we have a lot of people here with very positive perceptions of WoW, for example.

Well, whatever. I just wish people could SAY 'Tab Target has aiming/targeting skills' and you not immediately assume they are a 'Lower Skill WoW player'. It derails a lot of threads. At least this one, it was kinda the point.

And here's a small example of way smaller scale pvp where detargeting still matters (not as much in this particular video because the gear/class disparity is big, but this is just an example).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhbWTovQi_o

At 0:30 the mage uses an aoe detargeting skill and the dagger not only gets his cast interrupted, but also takes a whole 2 seconds to catch back up and start fighting the mage again.

At 2:28 you can see a bard using the tank's agro skill to retarget the dagger to him to try and help another support to run away.

If the RPS balance in mages case or the gear difference (the party is in t3 while dagger is in t5 gear and t6 weap) in the second one were just a bit closer, the dagger could've lost. There's also the overall skill difference too, cause I'm pretty sure that my friends and I managed to fight off these kinds of dudes with those kinds of parties before, while this group was either afk running or just had no coordination. Though the video does cut out, so who knows mb the dagger lost.

The mage coulda used more slows to try and kite the dagger (though still low rate of success in that situation), while the party should've just been more coordinated. They had a strong dps warrior, a dagger with a detargeter to mess up the attacker at least somewhat and two bards with good buffs, one of which had an agro which would've definitely helped.


And here's a video of a top player of his class (a hero) on the server having a detargeting ability literally as his first one on the bar. And you can see that he uses it quite often (sometimes using another one, 11 on the second line) and he stops casts with it and just tries to disorientate people with it (successfully too).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lu23kb3pQE

And the fight at 6:37 is the biggest example of what 2 daggers can do when it comes to detargeting.

In other words, detargeting works great both in small scale and in huge scale pvp.