To the Action Combat Fans

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I will remind you that I know EXACTLY how long you were on 'top' because I can CHECK that.

I can ASK people to DOUBLE check that.

Do not embarrass yourself here. There is no need to pursue this point.

The only reason anyone has any reason to believe that you were 'top 10 in Soul Calibur' was your screenshot, right?

It's trivial for someone like me to check EXACTLY when THAT Rank point number would have been in Top 10 range on XBox. I am not 'here to call you out'. You can ignore everything that even started this, I was trying to make a comparison based on top end play in FAST fighting games.

You have only seriously played a SLOW one. There was no point to even make, that's on me.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Ok wait. You said 'I am free to check your rank'.

I checked your rank.

You were top 10 for 6 days.

There you go.

EDIT: Do you see my point here? I'm the ONLY one who cares about this and even I barely care, this is a dumb derail based on a mistake I made about your experience.

Everyone else (who isn't in my group and therefore gets the same information) can just assume I'm lying because you said so. I will go with what I found. If you want to convince ME that the information I have is wrong, do that.

If you want to convince OTHER people, just call me a liar or manipulative repeatedly or something. This is pointless. I was just telling you 'don't bring up the Top 10 thing because my information shows me that it wasn't that important'.

Otherwise you're just 'claiming you were top 10' in a game that basically shriveled up within 3 months of release, and claiming it on the less competitive platform.

Why even bother?

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I read it as "if Noaani wanted to, he could play the game long enough to get the skill to be able to beat either of you". And I saw that assumption as one based on Noaani's attitude towards gaming overall, that is - highly analytical and super hardcore.

I've also haven't seen any proof from him on the things he's said, but to me (and seemingly to Azherae) it's a simple case of "true until proven otherwise". Noaani is a random person on the internet that might not even exist. Though keeping up the same persona for over a decade, as shown by the EQ2 forums link, would require a lot of commitment. Probably as much commitment as one would need in order to get good enough at SC to beat both you and Azherae.

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Good. Then just ignore it. Since I am not going to reveal my sources, nor am I going to compromise YOU in any way, you can assume 'it really looks like I am just lying' and other people will just assume I'm lying.

You don't have to worry about it if it isn't believable, and I don't care about it anymore. I have learned the most important aspect of this.

You have not seriously played any fast fighting games, so you did not understand the point I was making.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I was trying to make it clear that you should assume that Noaani is the type of person that understands the same things that you and I understand.

However, you have clarified that your experience wouldn't lead to the same understanding anyway.

You're right, I shouldn't have used that reference. It WAS definitely meant to affect you, I wanted you to stop and think 'well maybe I can see how a high level PvP ArcheAge player might be good at this' because I thought you would realize 'oh, yeah, because the skill types carry over from game to game'.

But you only played one game seriously enough, and the one game you played is a slower one, so I can see why you wouldn't conclude that the way I do. I'm not going to try to convince you that the skills transfer, if you've never experienced it and don't believe it works that way.

I just incorrectly thought that you would agree with me about that, so I made an appeal to your experience.

Soul Calibur is a slow game compared to the ones I am talking about.

The fastest startup normal attack in the game is 12 frames. This is equivalent to the SLOWEST startup normal attack in games I play.

So in Soul Calibur, you have to make decisions at only 1/2 of the speed that you make those decisions in Melty Blood (it's closer to 1/4 speed).

I'm not saying that Soul Calibur is some sort of super slow easy game. I'm saying it's slowER . Can we leave it at that?

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I'm really hoping that we get some good choices for both paths in Healing skills as they promised. I won't mind if the tradeoff for high-healing Action-Heals is having to be close to the target, for example, since this is at least a DECENT threat in PvE. Also, throwing out big sudden heals is an easy way to get hate in a game like this, so you'd have to synergize with your Tank and not just 'oh I'll stand here because my heal is so strong but nothing will ever hit me anyway'.

If enemies have cleaving attacks, even better for balance.

I hope that backline healers get 'consistency' and frontline healers get something LIKE 'power' with the tradeoff of 'danger' and that the PvE design means that the danger isn't something you can just cheese your way out of. I think most people would be happy at that point.

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Again, I absolutely understand that your experience and conclusions don't match mine.

This is fine. You believe that Noaani would not be good enough at Fighting Games because of supposedly not playing them before, (and apparently somehow because of being a PvE player in your mind, I guess you don't believe the ArcheAge thing?)

I believe Noaani. We don't have to agree on it. I was trying to bridge a gap to common ground. There is none, so we can drop it. Agree to disagree?

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Ok let's try this then, since you are pointing it out.

You just admitted that Soul Calibur is a slower game, but is 3D.

2D Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. 3D games are slower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. You prefer the 3D game (and you think it takes MORE decisions, I think?).

Action Games are faster and require better twitch skills and movement at high levels. Tab Target games are lower and require more decisions and thinking/range/planning at high levels. Noaani prefers Tab Target games.

You don't see me going '3D games are slow and take no skill what are you even talking about everyone knows that 2D games are better because they are fast and require actual reactions and aiming', right?

That's what you sound like, to Noaani.

EDIT: In case unclear, this is my ATTEMPT to move on with the topic while still not 'wasting' the conversation we just had, but I also gotta go stream a 'bot' so back in like 30 I hope.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I moreso was trying to get to the next part of the point.

No one makes 3D Fighting Games with 5 frame normals. PART of this is because it makes the animation look janky, but that's not always the reason. Some go down to 9 frames on the fastest ones, but the 'comfortable range' for most players is 10-12. There is a physical reason for this, I just don't know if you're aware of it or believe in it.

So your point is SIMILAR to 'devs could just make 3D games with 6f jabs and it would be fine'. Devs don't agree, which is why they don't make them. The real reason is that the specifics of the way 3D games work in terms of movement don't allow them to have a deep system starting from 6f normals. If anything it would reduce the skill cap and the game would become simpler and annoying. It's not IMPOSSIBLE, it's just a BAD IDEA.

It would become simple in the WAY that a 2D game becomes simple, but a lot less fun, because the thing it would take away is related to the sidesteps and movements, the '8-way run' you refer to. It would sort of 'turn it into a 2D game' and then the EXPERIENCE of playing it would stop having all the cool decision making.

So if you add too much Action Elements to a Tab Target style game, the same thing happens. Some people LIKE that, the same way some people 'like 2D games and don't care about sidestep'. But the 'cap' of 'what you can get into a Fighting Game is limited by frame data, you can't have a game that has proper sidesteps AND 6f jabs that most people can physically play , so Developers don't do it.

I guess this is more of me trying to make something useful out of all that stuff above for others. I don't really need you to respond if you don't understand why I say the stuff above. If you just 'believe that you can have a good 3D game with 6F jabs' and it would just 'raise the skill floor', then there's no need to respond to it. I was just hoping you could understand the Tab vs Action thing from that perspective.

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One question though. You obviously value proof for any kinds of statements. Do you have any proof for this particular statement?

Cause yeah, proper action combat in mmos might be a somewhat new thing, but in every action mmo so far there hasn't even been an attempt to make is as super difficult as you say it could be. And iirc Wildstar had action combat and was considered a hardcore mmo and I'm pretty sure that shit died real quick.

So to me this seems like most people don't want the kind of game you claim action mmos can be. Yes, people might like action combat more than tab, for one reason or the other, but so far history has shown that they prefer it in its current design. And that design is super easy, with main difficulty coming purely from the fact that you gotta aim your mouse a bit better than in tab games.

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I did so (rather I had someone else play it and did analysis) based on a suggestion from another forum poster here.

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Wildstar came out barely 2 years before BDO, with it going f2p one year before BDO's release. That's not even a gamer generation apart, so in theory it should've had the same potential playerbase as BDO, yet it still died.

I just rewatched the "death of a game" video on it and I guess its demise could be chalked up to mismanagement rather than purely difficulty. But at this point every single mmo outside of ff14 seems to be dying at the hands of poor management or greedy execs. And unless we get another "Steven", I doubt any company would be willing to risk a shitton of money by making a truly hardcore action mmo.

And as for LA, I personally see it as more of a 2d game rather than a 3d one. It might have some reactionary difficulty, but you're still just moving around a flat plain. Like, I just watched this video and it's all just "memorize this and react somewhat quickly to this"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhcS_sKgQk

While yes, that is difficult to do, I don't consider that mechanically difficult. And ff14 already has around this lvl of complexity for its ultimates too, and iirc Noaani said that ff14's ultimates are not as complex as EQ2's top raids are.

But here's a question now, do you really think you'd be able to do all of those mechanics while also having a third dimension in the game? That is, jumping over stuff, aiming at correct vertical points, all while tracking buffs and debuffs on top of that.

I'm fairly sure that this would just be a starting point of difficulty for someone like Noaani or Azherae. And they think that normal humans would be unable to keep track of all of these mechanics for 15-20 minutes of a single non-stop action fight.

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Wildstar came out barely 2 years before BDO, with it going f2p one year before BDO's release. That's not even a gamer generation apart, so in theory it should've had the same potential playerbase as BDO, yet it still died.

I just rewatched the "death of a game" video on it and I guess its demise could be chalked up to mismanagement rather than purely difficulty. But at this point every single mmo outside of ff14 seems to be dying at the hands of poor management or greedy execs. And unless we get another "Steven", I doubt any company would be willing to risk a shitton of money by making a truly hardcore action mmo.

And as for LA, I personally see it as more of a 2d game rather than a 3d one. It might have some reactionary difficulty, but you're still just moving around a flat plain. Like, I just watched this video and it's all just "memorize this and react somewhat quickly to this"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZhcS_sKgQk

While yes, that is difficult to do, I don't consider that mechanically difficult. And ff14 already has around this lvl of complexity for its ultimates too, and iirc Noaani said that ff14's ultimates are not as complex as EQ2's top raids are.

But here's a question now, do you really think you'd be able to do all of those mechanics while also having a third dimension in the game? That is, jumping over stuff, aiming at correct vertical points, all while tracking buffs and debuffs on top of that.

I'm fairly sure that this would just be a starting point of difficulty for someone like Noaani or Azherae. And they think that normal humans would be unable to keep track of all of these mechanics for 15-20 minutes of a single non-stop action fight.

I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.

Azherae wrote: »

I gotta say I totally enjoyed that vid. That looked kinda fun.

Yeah, it'd definitely be a nice memory and reactions practice. Though, from what I've heard of LA's gearing system, you'd have to suffer through the game to enjoy this endgame raid. But I guess you're somewhat used to suffering through games, considering your experience with BDO