Proposal and ideas regarding pvp in order to avoid griefing.

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Did EQ2 had this in its second expansion? Cause I'm not sure how many mmos there are that have this kind of variety in them. I've obviously haven't tried too many of them, but I don't think I've even heard about such mmos.

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Damn, you would've reaaaally hated L2 if you had ever played it Glad you didn't, cause you might've not even been on this forum if you had played L2 and then heard that Steven was inspired by it to make Ashes.

NiKr wrote: »

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Did EQ2 had this in its second expansion? Cause I'm not sure how many mmos there are that have this kind of variety in them. I've obviously haven't tried too many of them, but I don't think I've even heard about such mmos.

There are between 4 and 10 'viable' gear pieces for ALMOST every slot in FFXI for any 10-level range above 17. A surprisingly large amount of it is base game. If you played the 'Hybrid' class (Red Mage), you could have a valid reason for choosing lots of it.

This is a game that has gear restrictions by class (but wide groups of classes than can use the same gear).

I'm actually constantly surprised by the utter lack of gear in other games, and due to this I have no idea how much to expect from Ashes.

I'm not really saying this is good or bad, but it definitely got at least to the level of '3-5', meaning that if you couldn't get (or didn't want to get) one, you had options. Personally I find games without it kinda boring, but admittedly it doesn't add THAT much except the exact thing you're talking about. "Don't want to bother getting X? Get Y".

Old MMOs are 'weird'.

Azherae wrote: »

There are between 4 and 10 'viable' gear pieces for ALMOST every slot in FFXI for any 10-level range above 17. A surprisingly large amount of it is base game. If you played the 'Hybrid' class (Red Mage), you could have a valid reason for choosing lots of it

And I'd assume GW (and most likely 2 too) has a ton of gear per tier too, considering it's THE horizontal mmo. Yeah, guess this is just another example of me not playing enough mmos back in the day

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

There are between 4 and 10 'viable' gear pieces for ALMOST every slot in FFXI for any 10-level range above 17. A surprisingly large amount of it is base game. If you played the 'Hybrid' class (Red Mage), you could have a valid reason for choosing lots of it

And I'd assume GW (and most likely 2 too) has a ton of gear per tier too, considering it's THE horizontal mmo. Yeah, guess this is just another example of me not playing enough mmos back in the day

I definitely have been learning a lot about L2 from you but I had a real culture shock when that made me think 'Oh I should go see what kinds of cool gear they have/might have in TL' and found like one page of gear for the entire game (that's the way it felt, that isn't an exaggeration but I'm pretty sure I found one of those pages that has little information).

I guess they (MMO devs) realized they could get away with adding MUCH less stuff, and then just kinda did? As noted, it doesn't add THAT much to the experience, but 'I don't feel like upgrading this gear slot, I should save my money for this other one that really matters', at least, is kind of an important type of choice to have.

It's also why we end up with such different expectations from PvE and PvP, as already demonstrated.

Can't be griefed while trying to collect Iron for a helmet when you can just say 'screw it this isn't worth it I'll settle for the Headband with one less Defense and just look for a more chill group/make up for it with my skill'.

Similarly one wouldn't have a real reason to mess with your own node-mates when they're the ones who make your armor (or collect stuff so you can make theirs).

Azherae wrote: »

I definitely have been learning a lot about L2 from you but I had a real culture shock when that made me think 'Oh I should go see what kinds of cool gear they have/might have in TL' and found like one page of gear for the entire game (that's the way it felt, that isn't an exaggeration but I'm pretty sure I found one of those pages that has little information).

There's criminally low amounts of information about that game. Especially considering that it was supposed to come out this year.

Azherae wrote: »

I guess they (MMO devs) realized they could get away with adding MUCH less stuff, and then just kinda did? As noted, it doesn't add THAT much to the experience, but 'I don't feel like upgrading this gear slot, I should save my money for this other one that really matters', at least, is kind of an important type of choice to have.

It's also why we end up with such different expectations from PvE and PvP, as already demonstrated.

Can't be griefed while trying to collect Iron for a helmet when you can just say 'screw it this isn't worth it I'll settle for the Headband with one less Defense and just look for a more chill group/make up for it with my skill'.

Similarly one wouldn't have a real reason to mess with your own node-mates when they're the ones who make your armor (or collect stuff so you can make theirs).

What's the situation with gear variety in BDO? Cause I feel like korean devs just like to utilize player funnels in their pvp mmos and it's way easier to do if players don't have a choice in where to go or what to farm. And when most players hang around the same locations with limited mobs, you have yourself Steven's beloved soft friction. Though iirc BDO has channels so the friction kinda goes out the window when you have several copies of the same location that you can farm instead of just one.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I definitely have been learning a lot about L2 from you but I had a real culture shock when that made me think 'Oh I should go see what kinds of cool gear they have/might have in TL' and found like one page of gear for the entire game (that's the way it felt, that isn't an exaggeration but I'm pretty sure I found one of those pages that has little information).

There's criminally low amounts of information about that game. Especially considering that it was supposed to come out this year.

Oh, no, in this case I actually meant Lineage.

For TL I have nothing at all. They're keeping everything super quiet.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I guess they (MMO devs) realized they could get away with adding MUCH less stuff, and then just kinda did? As noted, it doesn't add THAT much to the experience, but 'I don't feel like upgrading this gear slot, I should save my money for this other one that really matters', at least, is kind of an important type of choice to have.

It's also why we end up with such different expectations from PvE and PvP, as already demonstrated.

Can't be griefed while trying to collect Iron for a helmet when you can just say 'screw it this isn't worth it I'll settle for the Headband with one less Defense and just look for a more chill group/make up for it with my skill'.

Similarly one wouldn't have a real reason to mess with your own node-mates when they're the ones who make your armor (or collect stuff so you can make theirs).

What's the situation with gear variety in BDO? Cause I feel like korean devs just like to utilize player funnels in their pvp mmos and it's way easier to do if players don't have a choice in where to go or what to farm. And when most players hang around the same locations with limited mobs, you have yourself Steven's beloved soft friction. Though iirc BDO has channels so the friction kinda goes out the window when you have several copies of the same location that you can farm instead of just one.

Garbage as usual.

Four gear sets with minimal effect, 8 weapons no one cares about (Green Grade)
Two gear sets with hidden effects, 3 weapons few people care about (Blue Grade)
Two (now four) gear sets BiS with a few set effects, 1 BiS weapon, one not quite as good supposedly, some other half-useful ones they added later.

Accessories are about the same. Makes sense this many years in, in a game that only actually has like 6 stats total.

No actual gear crafting to speak of, you 'assign that stuff to workers' and wait an hour, but they only make the Green Grade stuff basically so... yeah.

At this point, no matter what someone tells me an MMO does, or is, I'll believe them, given that game. I'll believe people play it. "You make most of your money crafting by selling to NPCs". Sure. "We have made it easier to sell to NPCs because people were complaining that they couldn't sell to NPCs ENOUGH". Yeah alright. You get the idea. However you naturally imagine what I just described, it's worse than that.

We have not received permission from Depraved to share the quoted post.

I think Noaani was just talking about it in the context of a purely pve game. And if another player can heal your mobs w/o you being able to do anything against that - that is really bad design. Unless you present it in a controlled manner with counterspells and proper balancing and in some form of competition - there'd be no reason for players to heal mobs, let alone someone else's mobs.

And while I agree that healing mobs in L2 kept your whole raid at full alert cause even a single enemy healer could fuck you up, what is the case with mob healing in the other games you implied? Are those games also pvp or are they purely pve?

We have not received permission from Voeltz to share the quoted post.

So you're literally removing owpvp, making everyone who attacks another player go corrupted (even if the target fought back but still died), all while reducing the penalties for being corrupted.

How exactly is that "not devolving into a FFA"? You're not stopping the people who would've killed others either way. Hell, you're now encouraging them because the penalties are now lower. And the people who would have maybe made a few hits against an opponent in hopes of removing them from a location (but not going through with it in fear of becoming Red) will now be scared to do so because they'll know that they'll always become red, no matter what the target does.

I find it hard to see how this system is better than the current one.

We have not received permission from Voeltz to share the quoted post.

Except I've done so countless times in L2. Though it was mainly me farming a location, seeing someone approach it and just hitting them preemptively to let them know that I'm ready to fight them for the location.

And I'd hit the original farmer of the location to see (and let them know) how hard I'm hitting him. If I hit him for 10-20% of his hp - he'll either run away to save on travel time (in the context of this happening deep in a dungeon) or he'll let me hit him until the mobs or I kill him. Depending on the mobs in that location, more often than not it'd be the mobs killing him and I'd get no corruption.

We have not received permission from Voeltz to share the quoted post.

There'll be 85 nodes. Even if 10-20 of those are your "allies" and/or have some goods that are useful to you and you want to trade with them, there'd still be 60 nodes that you can do whatever you want in and not care about the reputation.

If we're talking solo PKing, you'd already get the maximum of corruption, so no change there. If it's party PKing, they'd most likely just have a designated killer and at most a healer who'd help him out once in a while. With lessened penalties those parties would give even fewer shits about the corruption than they would right now. Especially considering that no matter who they attack or what their target does - they'll always become corrupted, because there's no combatant state in your suggestion (well, on the victim's side that is), so the group would always know what they're doing and what the result will be when attacking others.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

Noaani, at this point you're taking this way too far. Why don't I see you being this much of a stickler every time some new person keeps calling archetypes classes?

I've been playing mmos for a long time too, and was playing an mmo that was all about "training" mobs, but even when I played with english-speaking players I don't think I've ever heard "training" being used to indicate "leaving mobs onto another player with the goal of kill that player". Or even if I did hear it, it was used rarely enough for me to not put that into my long term memory. What I do associate "training mobs" with is just "pulling a ton of mobs a bringing them to the party's dps".

With that being said, "mob dropping" was a way more obvious phrase to indicate that you "dropped mobs onto someone" than the "training" phrase.

Also, you didn't give the example for what "mob dropping" means to you.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

Here's another quick google
https://www.insider.com/words-spelled-same-different-meanings-2019-1#lead-6

A list of words that have different meanings when used as different parts of speech, namely noun and verb.

Depraved used the phrase "mob drop" as an indicator of an action, which makes those two words have a verb meaning. I knew what he meant. You knew what he meant. There was no confusion, just you being particularly agro against him in that particular regard.

English is quite a contextual language and imo if people understand what you're saying in the context you're saying it - you've gotten your point across.

To me the archetype and class nomenclature is not interchangeable because they're two different things. You wouldn't interchange chrysalis with butterfly, even though one turns into the other and they are functionally the same entity.

But if I say chrysalis, it could mean a butterfly or a moth or any other insect that has this stage of development in their lifecycle. And if I say butterfly, you'd immediately know which creature I'm talking about.

To me, the same applies to the terms of archetype and class. If I hear "archetype" in the context of Ashes, I think about general player roles, 8 potential paths of progress and <25lvl characters. If I hear "class", I'd suppose that the speaker's going to talk about a very specific character. That is someone at >25lvl with a precise dual (or even singular) role.

But even though this separation is important to me, I don't go around correcting every single person on their improper use of those terms exactly because contextually I can differentiate what that person is talking about.