Splinter Topic: Is 20-30 Active Skills Enough?

A convergence of multiple factors in understanding of Ashes inspiration (thank you @JamesSunderland , for the answer in the topic that I am 'splintering' this from) has made me wonder if this is enough for players to feel like they are playing a proper MMO.

Steven has said that they will probably have about 30-45 possible skills in total, and at least two Hotbars. I will assume that in a game of ArcheAge's speed, you needed to be able to hit any of these quite quickly with mechanical skill, whereas L2 might be less like this.

Action or Action-y MMOs can feel like they have less of these skills due to many of them being tied to things that are only needed in Action-y games, but in many ways, they do not. Slower Tab Targety games can have lots more, but you often don't use them all, and Steven has also said that they want to avoid that ability bloat of 'stuff you just level out of using and never touch again but is still in your ability list'.

Then there's things like the control schema that limits things. The 12-20-button MMO mouse + Keyboard setup works fine for some, and for others its cumbersome, controllers work equivalently for those used to them, and are equally if not more cumbersome to others.

But in both cases, keybind overlap limits the mechanically less skilled, so I can see why they would go lower on this.

Unfortunately the CURRENT direction seems to imply that Ashes is fast. And has two hotbars. And it's made me wonder if, when people complain or criticize the concept of an MMO that is also built to work on console, for example, which is also likely to have such limitations unless it's slower...

Which aspect of it are they complaining about? I can only perceive the difference between console and PC MMOs to be 'console is supposed to be played on Controller', but I feel like I'm missing something maybe, because once a game adds a reticle (or just uses FFXI's 'target entity closest to center of screen if untargeted' default) I no longer know what the difference is, due to my own bias in experiences, given below:

• Elite Dangerous is basically unchanged for controller play, one of the only games where I actually nearly run out of possible controller keybinds due to the movement mechanics
• Final Fantasy XI (Playstation 2 on release, for those who don't know) is slow enough that they've just used the trigger buttons as 'Macro/Hotbar modifiers' for 20 years and just kept increasing the Macros you got instead. Basically 'make your own hotbars'.
• BDO doesn't use all its sane keybinds, far less 'possible' ones, and like most modern action games has a separate 'Ring Menu' system for stuff that you wouldn't need to activate often.
• Neverwinter uses the standard schema and then goes even further than that, so I actually have a better time with it than BDO.

Note that this isn't really a question about Controllers, vs Multi-button mouse, vs whatever else, so I'll try to dial it down:

I can see how Lineage doesn't work because Click-to-Move. What I'm missing is the information on what makes things like Neverwinter, ESO, etc, lower in complexity than Ashes is intended to be, or if it is the opposite and people are really concerned that Ashes will not live up to a standard of play they are used to because it has this lower number of active abilities.

And as usual, 'bonus' poke for Intrepid, y'all got Neverwinter combat people, right? Can I get the usual schema if we're only getting the 'standard' ability amounts? Much love.

EDIT: To clarify, when I say 'Neverwinter goes further than that' I mean on trimming down and simplifying relative to BDO or Ashes, not that they utilize more/better keybinds, if anything they're on the 'oversimplified' part of the spectrum.

Imo L2 could go faster than action games with its ability spam (and quantity) exactly because it was click-to-move. While quite a few classes mainly used 5-7 abilities (if that) just because they were "enough" to kill others, the variety of tools and damaging skills was quite high, especially in later updates.

I used ~20 abilities in 80% of my fights, with ~10 more additional ones when needed. Cast speeds were high so you could shoot out 2-3 abilities a second.

I'd imagine that action games have to go a bit lower purely because you gotta have at least 2 fingers on the directional buttons. And I'm sure that BDO can go higher exactly because it uses those directional buttons in its abilities.

Considering that Ashes doesn't seem to go down the "a direction + a button = a move" path, I personally think that ~20 active abilities, or at least bar slots, would be just enough. And it'd let the game get more complex with time, if Intrepid decide to take it there.

NiKr wrote: »

Imo L2 could go faster than action games with its ability spam (and quantity) exactly because it was click-to-move. While quite a few classes mainly used 5-7 abilities (if that) just because they were "enough" to kill others, the variety of tools and damaging skills was quite high, especially in later updates.

I used ~20 abilities in 80% of my fights, with ~10 more additional ones when needed. Cast speeds were high so you could shoot out 2-3 abilities a second.

I'd imagine that action games have to go a bit lower purely because you gotta have at least 2 fingers on the directional buttons. And I'm sure that BDO can go higher exactly because it uses those directional buttons in its abilities.

Considering that Ashes doesn't seem to go down the "a direction + a button = a move" path, I personally think that ~20 active abilities, or at least bar slots, would be just enough. And it'd let the game get more complex with time, if Intrepid decide to take it there.

Short version, no. For controller users this is how this works:

At least 2 shoulder buttons are 'dead buttons', and often the other two are also 'dead' in a specific way (Action-y games have additional trickery they can do with anything used to block or trigger a high speed movement)

Each of these buttons is then available to be a modifier for the face buttons functions, giving you 16. This is before you even start adding directions or requiring people to be able to hit the laterals (A+B on XBox controllers, for example)

Two of these can easily combine with the two on the other side in many games. Now you've got 20. The problem with no controller support is that they don't make enough ways to access SLOWER functions like the map or similar through 'Ring menus' or 'DPad modifications', and often force players to accept 'pressing X by itself is a way to access a menu or game function.

(I'm trying not to have this topic turn into 'nuh uh, controllers work fine/better!', but your third paragraph's point basically is moreso saying that it's (standard)Mouse and Keyboard that is holding back Action Games, not consoles/controllers, would that be fair to say?)

Azherae wrote: »

(I'm trying not to have this topic turn into 'nuh uh, controllers work fine/better!', but your third paragraph's point basically is moreso saying that it's (standard)Mouse and Keyboard that is holding back Action Games, not consoles/controllers, would that be fair to say?)

Yeah, I'd imagine that controllers let you do more stuff more easily, especially when you go the BDO way. Though I'm not sure how many people can go for hours and hours of playing a high intensity "press several buttons at the same time and keep doing it at super high speeds w/o stopping" gameplay.

I'm sure there's quite a few who can w/o a problem, but from what I've heard/seen from console players, the whole point of playing on a console is to just chill on a couch and not be a super sweaty player. And even when you are super sweaty, it's usually more about the intensity of the game itself rather than mechanical actions that the player has to do for prolonged periods of time.

Like I said, I used ~20 abilities in most fights. That's "1 to +" buttons and F1-F12 ones (not all used, but just the scheme) and I had the Num buttons as the optionals. And I was mashing space all the time in pvp because it was bound to a quick pot. How many people, do you think, would be willing to dance around their controller to do the same? And how many would be even physically able to. Well, again, in the context of non-BDO ability design. BDO was definitely kinda genius with their combat design, even if they didn't do all too well with all the other parts of the game.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

(I'm trying not to have this topic turn into 'nuh uh, controllers work fine/better!', but your third paragraph's point basically is moreso saying that it's (standard)Mouse and Keyboard that is holding back Action Games, not consoles/controllers, would that be fair to say?)

Yeah, I'd imagine that controllers let you do more stuff more easily, especially when you go the BDO way. Though I'm not sure how many people can go for hours and hours of playing a high intensity "press several buttons at the same time and keep doing it at super high speeds w/o stopping" gameplay.

I'm sure there's quite a few who can w/o a problem, but from what I've heard/seen from console players, the whole point of playing on a console is to just chill on a couch and not be a super sweaty player. And even when you are super sweaty, it's usually more about the intensity of the game itself rather than mechanical actions that the player has to do for prolonged periods of time.

Like I said, I used ~20 abilities in most fights. That's "1 to +" buttons and F1-F12 ones (not all used, but just the scheme) and I had the Num buttons as the optionals. And I was mashing space all the time in pvp because it was bound to a quick pot. How many people, do you think, would be willing to dance around their controller to do the same? And how many would be even physically able to. Well, again, in the context of non-BDO ability design. BDO was definitely kinda genius with their combat design, even if they didn't do all too well with all the other parts of the game.

This line of discussion would cause us to get into the weeds on this topic, in a way that might not be productive for general discussion flow.

Controller schemas are very complicated to perfect since the point of doing them well is that the player literally forgets what their own keybinds are, it's THAT intuitive after a short time on a good schema. However, I don't want to explain a whole one for a game you don't play/immediately understand, and unfortunately that includes Ashes itself.

For now, if you don't mind, trust that you'll get answers from me talking with others. I don't really want to address the divisive aspects of this topic such as 'player skill' or 'willingness to use controllers' except as specifics relative to games that they enjoy, because then we can ask those players directly.

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I believe it is fair to say that 'standard practice' is pretty close to that. There's a whole 'language' of controller stuff that you can just copy outright from nearly any game that does it. Here's the basics of it across most games of this type, to the point where I have effectively the same keybinds for Onigiri, Neverwinter (when it lets me), Monster Hunter, and a few more.

Things you need only in downtimes don't have VERY quick access options, they are in a menu.

Things you need consistently on longer cooldowns but not 'I need this and I need to be able to input the command for using it in less than 10 frames' go in 'Ring menus', which are accessed by holding a Shoulder button and flicking the Right Analog stick in one of approximately 8 directions.

Most games will let you set anything you want to any position in those menus so you can customize. BDO takes advantage of this even for skills (which works okay if you know what you're doing but isn't optimal, they are in the process of moving some from that setup to the buttons for a few classes).

Anything that 'almost certainly doesn't involve your character moving while you do it' goes on DPad so you can just take hand off Left Analog Stick and tap it. Usually these are also customizable so that different 'classes' with different needs can bind them however they like.

Some games use additional Ring Menus (BDO has EIGHT, for reference... not a fan exactly, but all fully customized so I use them for menu shortcuts)

I hope that clarifies without going too much into detail. 30 skills is getting rough for some but as noted, FFXI does the 'opposite'. It uses 'hold Alt to bring up a menu with 10 abilities and then hit a number'. Controller players get 'hold L2/LT to bring up a menu and use DPad to move to the option you want and confirm' which is old design but works well enough for a slow Tab Targeted game. It COULD add more options by using L1/LB and R1/RB but they went with just 'hey while you are holding the button press Down on pad to go down to a separate hotbar'. Only works in a slow game, I think, and limits you to 20 rather than 30 otherwise.

@NiKr some of your answer is contained in here. Monster Hunter requires all this and you have to do it at 'Action Game' speed, yes. However, half the people who bought that game didn't beat the third monster until the expansion that encouraged skilled players to team up with them for a bonus. This is the 'shorthand' I use when discussing 'casuals' as a demographic because it's a very clear datapoint that I think I could still find references for.

500,000 players are used to this and manage, 500,000 don't.

EDIT: I didn't find the reference for the precise thing, but here's an article !

I think the number of skills is also more about what they represent than purely button availability. If the game's design lets you do whatever you need to do and gives you tools for it and all of that fits into 20-30 abilities - you wouldn't really need more.

But if you have 60 learned abilities and several of them are very precise tools that you only need rarely so they are not really worthy enough of a slot on your active bar - then I'd just prefer the "several bars" design and afaik that is already the case in Ashes, so as long as we can switch through these bars really easily and quickly - there's no real problem with whatever control scheme they go for. Or at least I don't really see one.

NiKr wrote: »

I think the number of skills is also more about what they represent than purely button availability. If the game's design lets you do whatever you need to do and gives you tools for it and all of that fits into 20-30 abilities - you wouldn't really need more.

But if you have 60 learned abilities and several of them are very precise tools that you only need rarely so they are not really worthy enough of a slot on your active bar - then I'd just prefer the "several bars" design and afaik that is already the case in Ashes, so as long as we can switch through these bars really easily and quickly - there's no real problem with whatever control scheme they go for. Or at least I don't really see one.

True, but I definitely can see the concerns people would have over 'Ashes dumbing down the game to less abilities than they consider enough' (which ties back into other topic). On the other hand, Ashes has a meaningful reliance on Weapon Attacks for at least some Archetypes (I'd honestly expect all of them since probably Ranged Staves and Wands will be available among other things).

It's actually a matter of ratios in all three of the control types I know (mouse and keyboard with standard mouse, mouse and keyboard with special mouse/ things like this and controller). That factors in as well. If everything is used more or less evenly and mobility control is a high requirement, you're automatically limited or you end up like Elite, which would automatically make Action-y games limited.

I know EXACTLY what my build in Ashes is IF we assume Convergent Design, already, and I already 'planned out how to map all my keybinds' assuming they have a good Menu/Ring Menu. I'm just waiting on Cleric showcase to update my priors.

But I can also see some design directions that would make the keybinds frustrating or at least on the Elite Dangerous level (where I have to use things like 'hold Circle press left DPad' quite often). And in these, if the game is fast, you'd be limited no matter what system of control you use.

Healers are particularly susceptible to this because we're reactive. Sometimes you need the 'really big sudden recovery effect that you only use once every 10 minutes' but when you need it, you need it RIGHT THEN.

Azherae wrote: »

It's actually a matter of ratios in all three of the control types I know (mouse and keyboard with standard mouse, mouse and keyboard with special mouse/ things like this and controller). That factors in as well. If everything is used more or less evenly and mobility control is a high requirement, you're automatically limited or you end up like Elite, which would automatically make Action-y games limited.

I think Intrepid avoid this by stating that they're not planning for controller support. Obviously people can and will use those to control the game, but by saying "we don't support it" Intrepid at least distance themselves from potential control issues of that method.

And as for any other custom control method - those are always on the player rather than on the developer (well, at least imo). And if some super cyber coolhacker player is complaining that the game doesn't have 100 buttons for him to press on his 200 button apparatuses - the only thing I can tell him is the good ol' "not for you" meme.

And while I could come up with dozens of situations that would require very particular ability tools which would lead to 60++ skillsets - I'd rather wait and see what Intrepid have in mind for tool requirements. And I would definitely prefer the game start off with a smaller amount of abilities and have some space to bloat up to, rather than getting a shitton of abilities right away and then dread the balancing issues of future expansions because Intrepid would now have to decide whether to add even more shit or try and rearrange already preestablished tools.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It's actually a matter of ratios in all three of the control types I know (mouse and keyboard with standard mouse, mouse and keyboard with special mouse/ things like this and controller). That factors in as well. If everything is used more or less evenly and mobility control is a high requirement, you're automatically limited or you end up like Elite, which would automatically make Action-y games limited.

I think Intrepid avoid this by stating that they're not planning for controller support. Obviously people can and will use those to control the game, but by saying "we don't support it" Intrepid at least distance themselves from potential control issues of that method.

And as for any other custom control method - those are always on the player rather than on the developer (well, at least imo). And if some super cyber coolhacker player is complaining that the game doesn't have 100 buttons for him to press on his 200 button apparatuses - the only thing I can tell him is the good ol' "not for you" meme.

And while I could come up with dozens of situations that would require very particular ability tools which would lead to 60++ skillsets - I'd rather wait and see what Intrepid have in mind for tool requirements. And I would definitely prefer the game start off with a smaller amount of abilities and have some space to bloat up to, rather than getting a shitton of abilities right away and then dread the balancing issues of future expansions because Intrepid would now have to decide whether to add even more shit or try and rearrange already preestablished tools.

Well, I'll just remind again that I truly believe that Controller is ALWAYS easier for Action and Action-lite games. This is one of those cases where I'm confident enough to tell you 'trust my experience on that, outright'.

It's Standard Mouse and Keyboard that is limiting. Controller support addition might as well be an afterthought.

The reason for the question is mostly that Intrepid has already specifically said we will probably manage to get most 'in-combat' stuff onto two hotbars. And '2 hotbars' isn't even remotely restrictive/difficult to do on the Controller side, so you can ignore that aspect of it.

I wanted to know if people felt 'This is actually kinda dumbed down' because of the topic I splintered this from. I couldn't understand the reasoning why someone would think 'AA2 and TL will be dumbed down due to Console release', and I needed to understand if '20-30 skills counts as dumbed down' and if so, why.

Azherae wrote: »

I wanted to know if people felt 'This is actually kinda dumbed down' because of the topic I splintered this from. I couldn't understand the reasoning why someone would think 'AA2 and TL will be dumbed down due to Console release', and I needed to understand if '20-30 skills counts as dumbed down' and if so, why.

Well then I hope those same people explain themselves, but imo they just see themselves as PC master race while the console players are peasants. And that's they only reason for their opinion.

And while I definitely agree that kbm has waaaaay more button combinations, I don't think any sane player would want an mmo where you have to press 3 different keys at the same time just to use a single ability, of which there'd be hundreds. There was a reason why, even though L2's classes had upwards of 40 abilities, most people barely used 10. Simplicity will always win out in the eyes of the masses.

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It's actually a matter of ratios in all three of the control types I know (mouse and keyboard with standard mouse, mouse and keyboard with special mouse/ things like this and controller). That factors in as well. If everything is used more or less evenly and mobility control is a high requirement, you're automatically limited or you end up like Elite, which would automatically make Action-y games limited.

I think Intrepid avoid this by stating that they're not planning for controller support. Obviously people can and will use those to control the game, but by saying "we don't support it" Intrepid at least distance themselves from potential control issues of that method.

And as for any other custom control method - those are always on the player rather than on the developer (well, at least imo). And if some super cyber coolhacker player is complaining that the game doesn't have 100 buttons for him to press on his 200 button apparatuses - the only thing I can tell him is the good ol' "not for you" meme.

And while I could come up with dozens of situations that would require very particular ability tools which would lead to 60++ skillsets - I'd rather wait and see what Intrepid have in mind for tool requirements. And I would definitely prefer the game start off with a smaller amount of abilities and have some space to bloat up to, rather than getting a shitton of abilities right away and then dread the balancing issues of future expansions because Intrepid would now have to decide whether to add even more shit or try and rearrange already preestablished tools.

Well, I'll just remind again that I truly believe that Controller is ALWAYS easier for Action and Action-lite games. This is one of those cases where I'm confident enough to tell you 'trust my experience on that, outright'.

It's Standard Mouse and Keyboard that is limiting. Controller support addition might as well be an afterthought.

The reason for the question is mostly that Intrepid has already specifically said we will probably manage to get most 'in-combat' stuff onto two hotbars. And '2 hotbars' isn't even remotely restrictive/difficult to do on the Controller side, so you can ignore that aspect of it.

I wanted to know if people felt 'This is actually kinda dumbed down' because of the topic I splintered this from. I couldn't understand the reasoning why someone would think 'AA2 and TL will be dumbed down due to Console release', and I needed to understand if '20-30 skills counts as dumbed down' and if so, why.

EDIT: And just to clarify, to avoid any actual derail (I don't count your point as derail, NiKr). I am NOT asking for Controller Support, I am not advocating for it directly other than 'it's easier to make sure no one is cheating if you add it yourself' and has more inclusivity for some people.

It would be nice to get TWO small things that would make it easier to BIND for Controller players (one button that opens a menu that then goes into other menus, instead of a different keypress for Inventory, Skill Learning, Hotbar Management, Chat settings, etc, and a general 'hey if you hold down certain buttons they don't always immediately do their function and only do it onKeyUp instead of onKeyDown')

EDIT2: Why do I keep hitting Quote instead of Edit lately? Clearly I should map them to separate keybinds.

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I've been explicitly told multiple times that 'Action' does not refer to precise aiming or movement and that would be 'closer to an FPS'.

I'm aware that for FPS games, mouse and keyboard works better for MOST people due to turning speed things. If we are expecting Ashes to have such precise aiming, and that itself is part of the thing that would make another game 'dumbed down' for lacking it, then I do need to revisit my priors again, but so far, I have been explicitly NOT expecting that.

(for me, this is relative to precise AIM only in VERY fast games, movement and 'generally facing the correct direction', it's about equal once the Right Analog stick is tuned to the player at start, and then proceeds to 'whatever the player is most comfortable with', but I'm also from a genre where some people play most comfortably with their input device as anything they are comfortable with already)

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This is true to a point, but in FFXI I have:

5 Cure spells, 4 Regen spells, at least one Protect and Shell for each tier of Content, 8 Debuffs, 16 Debuff Wards, 7 buffs, 17 Ninjutsu, 8 base abilities, 10 Weapon Skills, and about 20 other miscellaneous things that would get cast from a sub-menu.

The depth of the game relies somewhat on me having all of these, and actually, 90% of them actually ARE in 'Hotbars'. Some friends have Hotbars whose main job is to automove them to other Hotbars.

This is because the game is slow enough that I don't need to be focusing on movement, just planning, so I have time to switch my hotbars.

My point is that I come from a baseline of 100 Abilities, so to me, ANYTHING below 70 is a significant reduction. I also 'would tend to assume that other games had similar numbers', so it isn't weird to me for someone to say 'yeah this game is too simple it only has 30 abilities, I'm used to 70, but I can't use all 70 if I have to devote time/control schema to moving around too, and I consider that to be dumbed down'.

Just clarifying context in case you have any specific opinions or experiences to add based on that, and as promised, to 'add more answers'.

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Yes, thank you. Do you have any... opinion, perhaps?

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I have no opinion on this because, again, this isn't about KBM vs controller to me at all.

It depends on the game, but I do think it depends somewhat by genre.

If anything, I think that people exaggerate the difference/effect of it until you have over 50 skills to worry about.

But as example, I would NEVER try to play Lineage with a Controller, even 'half and half' with the controller. Click to move isn't worth it in that situation. Even if it didn't have click-to-move, I have learned from others that click-targeting is far superior in that game.

I am actually also better at FFXI with keyboard (but the game can be played ENTIRELY without mouse, if you're determined) or half-and-half, but the difference is so negligible under most circumstances (because I can customize my own Macros/hotbar) that I just use whatever's convenient.

I have played other games that are 'like FFXI but faster and more mobile' and I could play those on KBM as well but would not LIKE it, so I don't. That's what I wish for everyone. I don't know what I'll do in Ashes yet. I used both, I will practice both.

But I can see how 'this game is mobile and has 40 skills' reaches 'KBM' territory for ANYONE who hasn't been using a controller for a long time. KBM is always more versatile OR easier at around that point, particularly for very tactical or click-to-move games. Basically if you care more about the position of your reticle than how quickly you can DO the ability or how 'physically intuitive it feels', I'm sure KBM is better.

But Ashes does not have 40 skills, and having researched it more, ArcheAge uses a similar 'press this to change hotbar entirely' method as FFXI does, which means I could in fact map it to Controller easily. So back to 'preference based argument' now that I've hopefully addressed that...

It sounds like 20-30 is actually moreso 'a sweet spot' for you. Is that correct? At that point, it is not a question of Controller vs KBM at all, to me, so there would be no concerns there honestly EVEN if reticle positioning was important (you have to reach 40 skills before there's overlap between Ring Menu requirements and reticle movement even in a SoftLock-Tab game)

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Grati pur data.

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Addressing this briefly now that we're probably far enough into the thread that most people won't be bothering to read these bits.

BDO works on Console because 'most things do', but this requires an understanding of 'how controller players who play these games expect to experience things'.

I'll try not to go into too much detail... (as if that ever actually happens).

Action Games have convergently evolved toward the following:

Primary Attack, Secondary Attack, Special Attack, Block, Jump/roll (Jump buttons suck btw), Dodge/quickdash (often sprints if the game has a Combat on/off toggle), Modifier button A, Modifier button B, Targeting/interaction button(extra attack option when the game has a Combat on/off toggle).

Let's work ONLY with this for now:
P, Se, Sp, BL, R, QD, MA, MB, T.

Since none of those overlap with WASD directly, I can use the 'keyboard movement commands' for the KBM familiar players, right?

Depending on the game you can't combine WASD with P for DIFFERENT attacks/abilities, but imagine a game where you can.

Rogue's S+P might do any number of things since Rogue's Neutral P probably just slashed in front of them.
Mage's S+P might do a Fire Wave if their Neutral P just did a launched Fireball. It's hard to explain EXACTLY why, but I believe that for many controller players, 'seeing a standing neutral P throw a fireball, and then S+P do a Fire Wave' in a game where you couldn't move while doing the Fireball, would be intuitive enough after the first time even if they didn't expect it. This is what BDO and games like it rely on. Most semi-experienced controller players do not 'accidentally do Fire Wave when they meant to just do Fireball'.

So, in the interest of trying to keep this short, there are about 23 'intuitive after the first time' inputs of this type if you start from the 9 'buttons' I mention (technically 8 because most games don't have jump AND dodge and this lets them have both MA and MB, but since I brought up BDO, I am obligated to mention it since they have both).

That game DOES have some control flaws and unintuitive/annoying parts when put on controller because it is a PC game, but it's really tiny things like 'still having some classes with no QD button who need to use doubletaps of WASD which is harder on Analog stick'. A thing that, again, only happens because they 'want to keep the Jump Button active during combat mode' (I actually don't know why this is because it doesn't help you dodge in BDO, it takes long to actually DO, and there are better ways to solve mantling and climbing, plus, you can do what I did in Ashes and just make MA+QD jump instead, since Jumping is usually deliberate anyway)

The only purpose of this post is to clarify what the limits of Controller schema are in such design spaces so that it can be factored into any perceptions of 'numbers of skills'. If anything, I am indirectly requesting ideas of 'abilities that you wouldn't think have a natural keybind', or technically 'abilities that you needed a fourth hotbar for in other games'.

I am NOT trying to suggest in any way that games should not have hotbars, nor that they should require people to memorize 16-30 Keybinds just to play the game, moreso 'BDO works on console because Controller players already have this mental structure, but most other games also work for the same reason'.