Weapon Based Cooperative Synergies and Meters

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I've got no concerns about them specifically, but I think that might be even harder on the average player than the Weapon Focus Gauge precisely because I know quite a few Fighter or Warrior players that don't even like dealing with 'having Mana at all' far less 'being unable to use their skills because it ran out'. And since those Archetypes don't usually have any abilities based around regaining it, that would be a double issue.

The people in my group would probably be fine since I think both of my Fighters would be Spellswords, but that's 'based on my expectations for Augments' again, which might not be good for balance if Mana management in battle was actually a big deal.

Overall I'm quite used to mana/power/meter management of all kinds across many games and welcome it, personally. I just don't like it as MUCH because the gameplay tends to lead to 'long rests after battles to regain it all', encouraging players to fight more like BDO due to it being the least difficult. You have to raise the exp rewards for 'going for tough stuff' pretty high in a 'heavy mana management' game before the average player I've encountered doesn't just go 'let's find stuff we can just smack down with melee so we don't have to rest, that'll be faster'.

Adding a Mana regain class makes that class mandatory and still only elevates that mindset to 'let's find stuff we can beat with melee and the amount of mana we regain per fight'.

That was an unpleasant-ish period in FFXI, I wouldn't expect much different in Ashes if they changed away from the 'you will generally have just enough mana in battles if things aren't going wrong' that I experienced and understood from something Jeff said a while back.

I also slightly dislike this if the Mana Potion cooldown is short, but I believe you are talking about a theoretical 'there are no Mana potions' game. (FFXI is a 'mana potions/drinks that regenerate mana are for Serious Content' game)

Azherae wrote: »

Overall I'm quite used to mana/power/meter management of all kinds across many games and welcome it, personally. I just don't like it as MUCH because the gameplay tends to lead to 'long rests after battles to regain it all', encouraging players to fight more like BDO due to it being the least difficult. You have to raise the exp rewards for 'going for tough stuff' pretty high in a 'heavy mana management' game before the average player I've encountered doesn't just go 'let's find stuff we can just smack down with melee so we don't have to rest, that'll be faster'.

Adding a Mana regain class makes that class mandatory and still only elevates that mindset to 'let's find stuff we can beat with melee and the amount of mana we regain per fight'.

As long as Intrepid succeed at "one of each archetype" being a beneficial party setup and give at least one archetype the tools to help others restore mana, I think it'd be fine.

L2's mana restoring classes had this ability


And with those classes having the biggest mana pools and their restoration magic restoring quite a bit of mana to the fighting classes (relatively speaking), you could farm quite a bit of stuff before requiring a full rest. Magic parties would usually use 2 such classes, because their mana usage was obviously higher.

Those classes would also have some nice buffs and some semi-good heals, so they weren't just a walking mana potion. I'd personally expect bards to have some mana restoration, if Intrepid decides to go for in-depth mana gameplay.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Overall I'm quite used to mana/power/meter management of all kinds across many games and welcome it, personally. I just don't like it as MUCH because the gameplay tends to lead to 'long rests after battles to regain it all', encouraging players to fight more like BDO due to it being the least difficult. You have to raise the exp rewards for 'going for tough stuff' pretty high in a 'heavy mana management' game before the average player I've encountered doesn't just go 'let's find stuff we can just smack down with melee so we don't have to rest, that'll be faster'.

Adding a Mana regain class makes that class mandatory and still only elevates that mindset to 'let's find stuff we can beat with melee and the amount of mana we regain per fight'.

As long as Intrepid succeed at "one of each archetype" being a beneficial party setup and give at least one archetype the tools to help others restore mana, I think it'd be fine.

L2's mana restoring classes had this ability


And with those classes having the biggest mana pools and their restoration magic restoring quite a bit of mana to the fighting classes (relatively speaking), you could farm quite a bit of stuff before requiring a full rest. Magic parties would usually use 2 such classes, because their mana usage was obviously higher.

Those classes would also have some nice buffs and some semi-good heals, so they weren't just a walking mana potion. I'd personally expect bards to have some mana restoration, if Intrepid decides to go for in-depth mana gameplay.

This is still exactly what I am talking about, though.

This is exactly what FFXI Bards are to many people.

Again, I'm not going to be confused or complain, I HAVE a Bard, she's all too happy to have 'Refresh' as it is called for us, as part of her rotation.

I just also know the opinions of many players in the 'Can't find a Bard, sorry guys, not worth the Party' pile from that time.

FFXI Bards at least were 'easy' (if this is all you wanted them to do in simplistic content) but that just meant that after a while, you didn't know which Bards were real because so many people would just 'choose the easiest content and then multibox a Bard account'.

I don't want to see this outcome in Ashes. I want Bards to be interesting (point of this post really, however indirectly) and ALSO that if you can't find one, your plans don't kinda shut down (Mage abilities may solve this, just noting it RELATIVE to the thing you're saying right now)

Azherae wrote: »

I don't want to see this outcome in Ashes. I want Bards to be interesting (point of this post really, however indirectly) and ALSO that if you can't find one, your plans don't kinda shut down (Mage abilities may solve this, just noting it RELATIVE to the thing you're saying right now)

Well, that would be where the augments come in, be they mage or bard ones.

But if we're to have even a basic "preferred" party setup - there'll always be people that won't have that precise setup and will have to deal with that. That's just the nature of party-based balanced games. You either have a constant party of people you play with regularly and do difficult content with them or you pug with total randoms and only do low-mid difficulty stuff.

Steven wants to get away from purely solo mmos of today and, to me, that implies the reliance on constant parties rather than pugs. But we'll have to see how many people will get totally discouraged from the game because of that design (that is, if Intrepid does go for it).

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I don't want to see this outcome in Ashes. I want Bards to be interesting (point of this post really, however indirectly) and ALSO that if you can't find one, your plans don't kinda shut down (Mage abilities may solve this, just noting it RELATIVE to the thing you're saying right now)

Well, that would be where the augments come in, be they mage or bard ones.

But if we're to have even a basic "preferred" party setup - there'll always be people that won't have that precise setup and will have to deal with that. That's just the nature of party-based balanced games. You either have a constant party of people you play with regularly and do difficult content with them or you pug with total randoms and only do low-mid difficulty stuff.

Steven wants to get away from purely solo mmos of today and, to me, that implies the reliance on constant parties rather than pugs. But we'll have to see how many people will get totally discouraged from the game because of that design (that is, if Intrepid does go for it).

I merely disagree with it because that's a core mechanical aspect. It's saying 'if you lack this Archetype your entire performance is limited considerably'. It isn't 'most content', I'm pretty certain it would be either 'all content' or 'as soon as people figured out which content could be done without the Refresh' then THAT would become the Meta target.

Instinctively I don't trust it. Raises all my red flags design wise. Not 'having difficult mana-gement'. Not 'having classes that restore it'. But in a game where EVERYONE has and relies on Mana? |Warning| .

I'll defer to your experience if this all 'just works', but note that I don't really enjoy the whole 'you will need every Archetype in your group' concept if it becomes very RIGID or 'requires someone to change build/secondary to something they don't even play normally 'because there are no more Bards online for this group'.

EDIT: Forgot that this is BBCode AND WikiFlat.

Azherae wrote: »

I'll defer to your experience if this all 'just works', but note that I don't really enjoy the whole 'you will need every Archetype in your group' concept if it becomes very RIGID or 'requires someone to change build/secondary to something they don't even play normally 'because there are no more Bards online for this group'.

I'd definitely say that it "just works" in the context of "you have all the partymates you need for your party", so yeah, if too many people dislike that kind of design I guess Intrepid would have to balance around that properly.

To me, everyone relying on mana works from the standpoint of "no pvp can be forever because yall gonna run out of mana sooner or later". And when you have 9v9 battles that can go on for 10 or more minutes even with limited mana, I can't even imagine what happens if you don't rely on it. Though no, that's a lie, I do know. It all comes down to crit rng and glass cannon builds, because that's exactly how L2's private servers with short cd mp pots worked

And while it was fun for those who've played "real" L2 for years at that point, I'd definitely not wanna see that kind of design in Ashes. So some good mana gameplay in all classes (including hp-to-mana, mana steal, mana share, mana equalize etc etc), with just a single or two archetypes that have a few more mana-centered abilities, would definitely be quite preferential for me.

And to bring this back to the weapon procs/meters discussion, there could definitely just be a weapon that could have a passive tree that focused on mana regen of some sort. Hell, there could be several even. You then just add a few reactive abilities to other archetypes to those passives, and you have yourself a supportive mana restoration source w/o requiring a specific archetype in your group (especially if it's a fighter group that doesn't need a ton of mana).

In other words, I do believe it can be done well and balanced properly. The design just has to account for that asap, so that it can be tested extensively rather than being a super late addition that then falls prey to shitty balance and becomes a complaint on release.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'll defer to your experience if this all 'just works', but note that I don't really enjoy the whole 'you will need every Archetype in your group' concept if it becomes very RIGID or 'requires someone to change build/secondary to something they don't even play normally 'because there are no more Bards online for this group'.

I'd definitely say that it "just works" in the context of "you have all the partymates you need for your party", so yeah, if too many people dislike that kind of design I guess Intrepid would have to balance around that properly.

To me, everyone relying on mana works from the standpoint of "no pvp can be forever because yall gonna run out of mana sooner or later". And when you have 9v9 battles that can go on for 10 or more minutes even with limited mana, I can't even imagine what happens if you don't rely on it. Though no, that's a lie, I do know. It all comes down to crit rng and glass cannon builds, because that's exactly how L2's private servers with short cd mp pots worked

And while it was fun for those who've played "real" L2 for years at that point, I'd definitely not wanna see that kind of design in Ashes. So some good mana gameplay in all classes (including hp-to-mana, mana steal, mana share, mana equalize etc etc), with just a single or two archetypes that have a few more mana-centered abilities, would definitely be quite preferential for me.

And to bring this back to the weapon procs/meters discussion, there could definitely just be a weapon that could have a passive tree that focused on mana regen of some sort. Hell, there could be several even. You then just add a few reactive abilities to other archetypes to those passives, and you have yourself a supportive mana restoration source w/o requiring a specific archetype in your group (especially if it's a fighter group that doesn't need a ton of mana).

In other words, I do believe it can be done well and balanced properly. The design just has to account for that asap, so that it can be tested extensively rather than being a super late addition that then falls prey to shitty balance and becomes a complaint on release.

I'll clarify then.

Content needs a tank. Until it doesn't, or until someone who doesn't normally Tank steps up and you make do somehow like crazy people. Maybe the Summoner has some experience tanking. Maybe you all share the responsibility and just work around the extra damage.

Content PROBABLY doesn't actually NEED a Rogue or Ranger, they would definitely have abilities that would be extremely nice to have, but we'll see.

A better way to say it might be:
"When you have no Tank, other people have to do more things and work harder."

"When you have no Rogue, other people have to do different/more things and be more careful."

"When you have no Bard, people can just do less things."

I object only to this aspect of it. This was the reason why FFXI players didn't complain as MUCH about 'lack of Tank' as they did 'lack of Bard'. Someone, or two people together, were usually willing to try to Tank. It might be challenging. It might be more interesting.

Lack of Bard just meant 'ok we can't do as much, everything is slower now, hold back on your abilities more, maybe seek less dangerous opponents'.

Not a fan of THAT, and you know I'm not only 'in a Group with a Bard', I also welcome challenges of basically all kinds, including 'limitation'. But if the content is designed 'to be cleared with a Bard's support' and Mana Restoration is included in that... I don't expect 'no Bard' groups to be as functional nor as fun.

Azherae wrote: »

Not a fan of THAT, and you know I'm not only 'in a Group with a Bard', I also welcome challenges of basically all kinds, including 'limitation'. But if the content is designed 'to be cleared with a Bard's support' and Mana Restoration is included in that... I don't expect 'no Bard' groups to be as functional nor as fun.

Yeah, we'll just have to disagree on that particular part of design. Totally get why you'd dislike it, but my L2 bias and overall preference of forced constant partying pushes me towards liking this kind of direction.