Splinter Topic: Is 20-30 Active Skills Enough?

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I agree completely.

I love FFXI but it has a lot of things it could do better and a lot of strain points for most players, many of which are completely unnecessary .

I would never want them to rebuild it the same way it is now, it was a product of its time, and I am happy with the number Ashes has.

So to quickly reiterate my initial confusion:

1. Some people were SORTA acting like console dumbs down MMOs, even Action ones (especially Action ones?)
2. I come from a game with 100 abilities that I used to play on Console so I didn't know what they meant so I asked about the ability number and James helped educate me
3. I believe that 40 skills or less is possible on Console because Controllers can handle 40 skills
4. I wanted to understand what 'dumbing down' people were referring to, and to figure out if those people were also talking about games with 70+ skills that also had quick difficult positioning (ArcheAge for example has relatively mechanical combat)

I genuinely thank you for your answers, therefore. Seems that WE all, at least, can hope that TL, AA2, and ESPECIALLY Ashes, just keep going the way they are going, and I can PROBABLY ignore the 'console dumbs down MMOs!' people for now. They could easily be right, after all, but their perspectives don't seem to be BASED on anything that anyone has noted so far.

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This is also extremely important, yes.

I personally shouldn't bring it up because I have way too many opinions/expectations/speculations and it creeps into my already-extensive ramblings, but it's definitely true that if the customizations/augments are 'weak', some people might not feel like 20-40 skills is enough just because they won't feel unique enough in groups.

Less skills also makes it more 'required' to take meta versions of some imo because it means you can't build as strong an 'internal synergy' for your own build/gear.

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You did mean to type '10' here, right?

Can you give any examples of games where 'after about 10 skills the rest just feel like bloat'?

Azherae wrote: »

You did mean to type '10' here, right?

Can you give any examples of games where 'after about 10 skills the rest just feel like bloat'?

I assumed they meant 10 active ones, so smth like NW.

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Well, I will (finally) answer in what detail I can and also pad the answer with additional information relative to the undercurrent topic of this thread. tl;dr - I get 23-25 useful.

You can ignore the keybinds data (it's technically for someone else) and focus only on the skills themselves. Not all will be named correctly because I frankly can't be bothered for BDO. Note that this is moreso agreeing with you, than not agreeing.

BDO Kunoichi Succession

Slash - Neutral P
Slashes. Repeats up to 3 hits before restarting. Animation cancelable

Throwing Kick - Neutral Sp
Kicks. Repeats up to 3 hits before restarting, Animation cancelable.

Floor Sweeping - S + Sp
Sweepkick. Might CC.

Kunai Throw - Neutral Se/ A+Se / D + Se
Throws a Kunai, side versions 'spin sideways' while doing it. Can't remember if you can cancel side versions cause I don't do that

Shadow Slash - A + P or D + P
Slashes while spinning sideways. I personally think of this as 'the same' as Slash, though the game doesn't.

Crescent Slash - S + P
I never use this. I think it's supposed to be good now but idc, it launches and I don't need that.

Ankle Cutter - Neutral MA + P
Cuts ankles. Reduces Def a bit. Cancelable.

Ghost Greeting - W + MA + P
Rushing slash. Pretty short, but meaningfully faster than running speed, so a small gap closer.

Shadow Stomp - S + MB
Slow startup 'gap closer' that hits everything in the way and you go through them.

Shadow Explosion - MA + Sp I THINK?
Linear energy wave in front, doesn't move you, multihit. Can't remember the keybind for sure because I just do stuff intuitively after awhile and I'm not turning BDO on for this.

Brace - MA + R (roll/jump)
Small self healing.

Fox Claw - MA + Se
AoE slash around you with slight pushback.

Shadow Clone - S + Se
Backflip with frontal energy wave in a cone.

Flash Slash - MA + Bl
AoE multislash, meant as a big cool attack. I seldom use it, but 'seldom' is 'once every 10m or so if relevant'

Smokescreen - R cancel from Throwing Kick or Ankle Cutter
Ground smokebomb, press R again to dash behind opponent, but you have to turn yourself around manually.

Suicide Fall - Literally forgot how to do this, but not because I don't use it. It's easy though, like a 1 button... Probably 'Neutral MB'.
Grab, if you're familiar with the 'Izuna Drop' ninja technique concept, this is it.

Tendon Cutter - W + Bl
Can't move while blocking anyway, right? Multi hitting direction-changeable big gap closer, three rushes.

Danse Macabre - W + T
Single big gap closer with some weird cancels

Fatal Aim (or something) - P + Se
Strong very close range stab, not really cancelable, recovery long (for BDO). Hold buttons longer to do Heart Aiming which is just another stab of the same.

Shackles - MA + T
AoE Slow + damage.

Ghost Step - A + MA or D + MA
Sideways evasion.

Block Jump - MA + Bl
Ninja log decoy technique. Flick a direction to end up there, including 'behind current target'.

Black Moonlight - Sp + DPad Down -> (calls up Ring menu) R-Stick Up
Rain of Kunai/Shuriken around AoE. I hope they change this one day to T+R, but it doesn't need to be fast really.

Heart Snatch - Sp + DPad Down -> R-Stick Down-Left
Single hit vanish + large retreat that I wish was on S+T since you can't control the direction anyway.

Sinew Cut (?) - Sp + DPad Down -> R-Stick Down
Large retreat that leaves an AoE slashing 'zone' behind like a trap for enemies to stand in/walk into. Would prefer nearly any S+MA+basic for this, you're already 'pressing S' the moment you think of using it. Most sensibly would be S+MA+Se so that it's like 'retreating Fox Claw', but there's valid reasons why 'S+MA' might not be 'allowed' to do anything, such as 'being Evasion'.

Commencement Dance (I forget the real name of this, it's just a buff) - DPad Up (also just a ring menu) R-Stick Down
Longish animation, long cooldown, long duration buff to lots of small things. Can stay in a Ring Menu.

If we don't count 'Slash, Shadow Slash, Crescent Slash, or Ghost Step', and treat this as the equivalent of a Fighter/Rogue or Fighter/Ranger, then I would say only 2-3 of these are actually redundant. And for me they're not, because [Long List Of Balance Reasons].

There's also about 3 more of them that I don't remember because I don't use them, one that can be activated with just buttons and two more that get put into Ring Menus. Honestly, I could use about five more, and this isn't because of cooldowns preventing the use of the ones I have. Consider a Fighter/Ranger Speculative Build for Ashes (I'll just use the stuff my Spellsword wants).

"Somersault Strike" - A backflip that hits in front, goes highish backward, then slams back down and hits in a small cone in front. Edge of cone is just far enough that this is a two hit combo on someone directly in front of them at the time it is done. This is for repositioning and dealing with people behind them.
"Push Beyond" - Sacrifice HP to increase attack. Doesn't matter if this is a oneshot or a per-swing or a 'give up this much health for this length of buff' but the latter two work better with Augments.
"Flying Dropkick" - Frontal attack, single target, sends opponent flying away a relatively good distance. Maybe extra damage if they collide with something behind them.
"Man At Arms" - Increases any stat modifiers on your next Weapon Skill and/or increases the chance of procs from your Weapon Perks(?)
"Trail Run" - Basically just a free armored sprint forward, maybe can do other moves from it (does this count as an Animation Cancel?). Causes the Fighter to Vault over certain small obstacles?
"Weapon Stance" - Does different things depending on the equipped main weapon, usually increases Counter or Parry chance or something.

None of these are explicitly covered by the list. There's stuff you could 'fold in' for simplicity, but 'something to activate a stance based on weapon', 'frontal knockback', 'a backflip that doesn't actually retreat much but hits instead' would, at minimum, replace things, and could be meaningfully helpful if added as separate things.

None of that even touches 'stuff that's just there to activate effects like Bleed'.

And for that person who wanted the data on 'which are unused' (they know who they are):

They could use the following without being likely to misfire anything or losing any combat ability:
Neutral MA + MB (already use this on a different class, but generally I'm avoiding any mentions of MB, some games might require one more button, Tab Games in particular might need a 'confirm/unconfirm/cycle target button and this Modifier would be set up around those functions (e.g. MB + P/Se/R/Sp with the last being for when you need both Analog sticks still despite currently tab targeting)
W + MA + MB (but THIS class already has enough gap closers and this would be one by default to avoid weird misfires/crosswires)
Bl + T - (would expect/want a counter or parry here)
Bl + R - (You can't block and jump/roll at the same time, I'd manage to not hit this without meaning to)
S + Bl + T ( even if I could move while blocking like on Nova, this would still be good and not misfire)
S + Bl + R ( same as above )
Neutral Se -> Sp ( modifiers to secondary attacks doesn't seem like it would be uncommon nor weird )
Neutral T + R (Already mentioned I'd want this for an surround AoE, since you don't need RStick for targeting, and Neutral T doesn't do anything)
W + Se - (Pretty sure this class doesn't use this for anything, but others do)

I think directionals don't work as well for inexperienced WASD people because they use 2 fingers to move diagonally to begin with until they learn the nuances of mouse camera control and even after this, for a while.

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I find it hard to say because my experience with a lot of games is that there's a certain subset of abilities that exist 'just to prevent the basic weapon attack from being a significant portion of your damage'.

Which lets them make that basic weapon attack quite weak and 'something you only do as filler, if even that'. Those games tend to have a lot more 'padded out' stuff.

Games with elemental damage tend to need to give their mages a lot more stuff, but I'd also expect Mages to have build specializations and still be comfortable. Maybe some sort of 'basic attack' that isn't an 'attack' at all, just a 'small empower of next spell' sort of thing, like from Orbs.

So while I prefer 16-20, this is only when the game isn't devoting 5-8 of those to 'You hit, but harder!'

Not that I mind that type of skill at all, even if it doesn't actually add any special added effect, just that when you have 16 skills and half of them are just 'hit the person in front of you with slightly different damage', it feels a little dry and I'd want more skills total, then.

Not sure how people feel about playing a game that has very few of those (particularly for melee) though, in terms of long-term engagement.

Pretty much every single one of these have their own function (at least secondary) and only 2 slots are "same", because one is the ability itself and another one is a macros to use that ability on my own character with a press of one button. The bottom 2 rows would be used in 90% of pvps and all three rows would be used in 70-80%.

I'd like to have around the same amount of tools, even if I need to swap between several bars to access them.

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https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Action_bar
There will be an option to include multiple hotbars.[2][4]