I Have An Iron Hope That We're Gonna See A 'Templar'

Post by Azherae on 2022-12-01 14:51:11

Good luck to both Intrepid and @Ironhope for the next stream.

Twitter's image was really well chosen, so props to whoever selected that.

I'm hype to see something 'additional' (a BossFight) but definitely will be rooting for all involved to have a great experience either way.

We're definitely past the point where we can expect anything we say in threads to influence the footage if it is the Cleric/Templar/Apostle style reveal I'm betting on, so let's have a different controversial conversation instead. How well should Clerics/Bards be able to DPS if they try?

My obviously biased vote is '70% of an average DPS character spec'.

The reason is because while I believe in 'Trinity' play, I see it moreso as pillars of play, not restrictions. You must have A healer for hard things or eventually you die due to effects uncleansed. You must have a Tank for hard things or eventually you die due to damage taken. You must have DPS for hard things or eventually you die by attrition.

Some games solve this by just giving everyone 'enough of each' and I disagree with this because it's stupid to balance (if you are in healer gear why should you still have enough damage to not die by attrition?) but I also don't think it's necessary to give each one 'very little' for this to work, in my experience.

I perceive good DPS as having enough additional Utility beyond just 'I do t3h damage' that I don't even think of 'Total Damage' as the real important thing in that 'slot', so I obviously favor 'being able to spec for damage and get up to near a Defensive Spec Fighter'.

I figure that any Cleric showcase will get us 'arguing' about this anyway, so head-start? Maybe it'll get us some extra tidbits of data on the live portion of stream.

Post by Nova_terra on 2022-12-01 15:32:38

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Post by Azherae on 2022-12-01 16:26:18

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You've pointed out to me a flaw in my post so I've edited it to say '70% of an average DPS character spec'.

I too, was thinking of it in terms of relative function, not 'how much of their build needs to be put into DPS abilities', but I failed to make that clear so it's clarified now hopefully.

As for another point, we don't actually know YET whether or not a Healer's capacity can be entirely separate from the Action Combat aspect of the game. If Intrepid goes by what I think was the 'majority' of feedback from Healers over the last few years, it seems more likely to me that you'd get the 'basic' Cleric as being a very 'low Action' style Archetype that would have to be augmented to gain mobility.

Of course, that does limit their DPS potential against mobile targets to an extent, but that could also be a 'lever' for balance.

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Post by Azherae on 2022-12-01 17:22:16

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While I also enjoy the game type you're describing, I don't really feel it ends up being that way because it tends to affect only Healers and Bards in the end.

DPS just find 'the thing they can kill before their HP runs out in big bursts and ride their cooldowns. Moreso what I'm saying here is that if DPS can solo, Cleric should probably be tuned to keep up. Most people don't jump into playing Cleric 'so they can solo' anyway, right?

I feel that limiting Cleric in DPS scope, or indeed limiting other classes in sustainability (not necessarily healing, but for example learning to hunt very skillfully as mentioned above) leans more into MMORPG elements because it allows more flexibility in characterization for those who RP.

And by RP I mean even just 'RP through their build' which is... kind of the point of a Role Playing Game to me.

I dislike the 'you can't solo but you're in high demand for groups' for other technical reasons as well, but I complained about it in other threads and I feel it'd derail this one, so I'm just mentioning it so you know where I'm coming from and can therefore 'dismiss' my perspective in terms of strength of our disagreement.

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Post by Azherae on 2022-12-01 18:57:04

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I'm hoping for the 'low amount of healing' but NOT the 'likely heal/dps hybrid' because my preference for the threat-type of MMOs is not 'damage taken' but 'crippling effects stacked up'.

There's lots of reasons I could rant about as to why I think this is better, but overall I'm definitely hoping for a bit lower on the Actual HP Healing scale if they can balance their other intentions well enough relative to it.

Post by Nova_terra on 2022-12-01 19:09:07

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-12-01 21:32:09

In a party setup I'd prefer cleric to mainly be a healer. The bard addition there would probably help with some additional party dps boosts (through both buffs and debufs).

But if we're comparing solo dps capabilities between a cleric/bard that has a dps build and another dps archetype with a dps build, then I'd prefer the C/B to be at around 60% in most cases and around 120% in some. Those "some" would be mob types that clerics are good against (smth along the lines of holy/unholy types).

I'm used to bards being buff machines which lets them do more solo dps than an unbuffed dps char, but I'd hope that Intrepid goes away from those kinds of extremes, so a bard would be around 80-90% of a dps char.

Imo the cleric should be ~40% against normal mobs (mainly due to high mana use), but should also have a few mob types that they can kill quite easily. That mob type would be limited, so solo clerics would have to contest them. But as we all know, solo clerics are a rare kind of player, so I don't think it'd be that much of a problem.

And so a cleric/bard would have the buff/debuff boosts against normal mobs, which would bring him up to ~60% of a dps char, while against those special mob types it would push him over 100%.

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Post by Azherae on 2022-12-02 01:08:42

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This isn't really about a 'need'.

Or rather, not a need for any specific 'thing that happens'.

It gets back to other aspects of design relative to 'having enough of them around', 'having them able to remain in sync with groups they like', and 'Roleplay class identity'.

Some people (you've seen them) just view themselves as 'Adventuring Healers that can Heal and DPS'. Sometimes, as you suggest 'Ah, but not at the same time' and sometimes 'under complex conditions' such as what NiKr suggests with 'special target mobs'.

The main 'problem' is that those things, by emergent design, often are available to other classes as well (might not be in Ashes) so it creates this weird situation where designers 'spend a lot of time making sure healers have less DPS or survivability' (the latter is more justified imo, but also probably should be tweakable) to prevent them from doing stuff that others can find other ways to do.

As for your question... I don't know because I don't really enjoy games where you can SURVIVE fighting too many mobs at once even on a healer, alone or even duo. I don't enjoy the gameplay type much other than as a 'hey watch this cool thing I can do when I time it perfectly with all cooldowns and all mana available' from a Mage.

tl;dr my experience is that if you make Healers/Bards too rigid in an MMORPG it becomes 'a lobby game' to them, they get sick of it, and either 'rush to endgame' (since that's what a large subset of the people who ask them to heal want to do as soon as they HAVE a healer/bard) or play something else.

In a game with Secondary Archetypes, I also feel a lack of DPS would create the 'why even bother trying?' meta quite quickly.

Post by Azherae on 2022-12-02 01:10:43

In a party setup I'd prefer cleric to mainly be a healer. The bard addition there would probably help with some additional party dps boosts (through both buffs and debufs).

But if we're comparing solo dps capabilities between a cleric/bard that has a dps build and another dps archetype with a dps build, then I'd prefer the C/B to be at around 60% in most cases and around 120% in some. Those "some" would be mob types that clerics are good against (smth along the lines of holy/unholy types).

I'm used to bards being buff machines which lets them do more solo dps than an unbuffed dps char, but I'd hope that Intrepid goes away from those kinds of extremes, so a bard would be around 80-90% of a dps char.

Imo the cleric should be ~40% against normal mobs (mainly due to high mana use), but should also have a few mob types that they can kill quite easily. That mob type would be limited, so solo clerics would have to contest them. But as we all know, solo clerics are a rare kind of player, so I don't think it'd be that much of a problem.

And so a cleric/bard would have the buff/debuff boosts against normal mobs, which would bring him up to ~60% of a dps char, while against those special mob types it would push him over 100%.

My game experience is that if you have varied and good PvE, every class has something like this,

I wouldn't think of this as 'the Cleric/Bard does extra damage to the mob' (this tends to lead to problems) but I would prefer "DPS do less if they don't have Cleric/Bard cleanses or buffs" across MANY mobs.

This therefore 'slows the DPS' but lets them still try, which makes many places more viable for adventuring in a way that might meet people or support smaller groups. If you had 'Bard/Cleric does extra damage to mobs', the DPS has no 'reason to go to that area looking for a Bard/Cleric to hang out with/bother/fight' because they are wasting their time if they happen to not find any and the gameplay isn't necessarily more interesting.

If you have 'This mob/opponent debuffs me enough that I want a healer/buffer' you can have more interesting gameplay involving shifts in your own build, consumables if you're determined and just killing some time, etc.

I'm mostly mentioning this because I'm aware of the difference in your PvE experiences.

Post by ElCrisp on 2022-12-02 05:14:21

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Post by Azherae on 2022-12-02 07:12:03

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If you are Cleric/Fighter and you go "I'm a Templar" and your group just goes 'yeah but you're a healer so focus on the healing thanks, please take augments that enhance your healing'...

What's the point of being anything other than a High Priest or Oracle?

Post by Ludullu on 2022-12-02 17:02:35

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But would the self-healing be a huge benefit to a solo farmer? Imo this is also the counterbalance to the "not everyone can heal" part. The healers might have lower dps, but they have heals so they can go for way longer (especially in a melee/range build that doesn't depend on mana usage as much), while others must rely on hp regen methods to sustain their farming. So while it might be a simplistic design, I think it is somewhat balanced that way.

I personally prefer soloable content to be on the side of specialized design, rather than a general one. So a cleric's solo content would be different from a tank's one and/or from a rogue's one. Well, specialized when it comes to the mob pve part of it, of course.

So like I said, cleric's mobs would have some weakness towards its kit, so cleric would be much stronger against those mobs than any other archetype. Rogue's mobs would have slower turn rates, so the rogue would be able to damage them in the back (if Intrepid go with the design choice). Tank's mobs would have weapons that go through armor much better, but are blocked by shields very well, and while everyone could wear a shield the overall speed of going through mobs would be slower w/o proper shield passives that most archetypes wouldn't bother with. Ranger's mobs would be susceptible to slowing debuffs. Etc etc.
My game experience is that if you have varied and good PvE, every class has something like this,

I wouldn't think of this as 'the Cleric/Bard does extra damage to the mob' (this tends to lead to problems) but I would prefer "DPS do less if they don't have Cleric/Bard cleanses or buffs" across MANY mobs.
I want both of those things. The former for purely solo content and the latter for anything that requires more than one person to farm.

There could still be mechanically difficult mobs that push the solo players to their max, but my main point is that any truly solo content should be specialized enough to avoid pitting completely different archetypes against each other in pvp during their solo farming. Because with an RPS solo balancing, you'd always have locations where some archetype will be stronger than the other by default. Which would lead to the weaker side feeling bad about doing solo content.

I'm sure there's better ways of addressing this in the pve design itself, but I'm mainly looking at it from the pov of pvper who's constantly looking around for any attackers.

Post by Azherae on 2022-12-02 17:08:48

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But would the self-healing be a huge benefit to a solo farmer? Imo this is also the counterbalance to the "not everyone can heal" part. The healers might have lower dps, but they have heals so they can go for way longer (especially in a melee/range build that doesn't depend on mana usage as much), while others must rely on hp regen methods to sustain their farming. So while it might be a simplistic design, I think it is somewhat balanced that way.

I personally prefer soloable content to be on the side of specialized design, rather than a general one. So a cleric's solo content would be different from a tank's one and/or from a rogue's one. Well, specialized when it comes to the mob pve part of it, of course.

So like I said, cleric's mobs would have some weakness towards its kit, so cleric would be much stronger against those mobs than any other archetype. Rogue's mobs would have slower turn rates, so the rogue would be able to damage them in the back (if Intrepid go with the design choice). Tank's mobs would have weapons that go through armor much better, but are blocked by shields very well, and while everyone could wear a shield the overall speed of going through mobs would be slower w/o proper shield passives that most archetypes wouldn't bother with. Ranger's mobs would be susceptible to slowing debuffs. Etc etc.
My game experience is that if you have varied and good PvE, every class has something like this,

I wouldn't think of this as 'the Cleric/Bard does extra damage to the mob' (this tends to lead to problems) but I would prefer "DPS do less if they don't have Cleric/Bard cleanses or buffs" across MANY mobs.
I want both of those things. The former for purely solo content and the latter for anything that requires more than one person to farm.

There could still be mechanically difficult mobs that push the solo players to their max, but my main point is that any truly solo content should be specialized enough to avoid pitting completely different archetypes against each other in pvp during their solo farming. Because with an RPS solo balancing, you'd always have locations where some archetype will be stronger than the other by default. Which would lead to the weaker side feeling bad about doing solo content.

I'm sure there's better ways of addressing this in the pve design itself, but I'm mainly looking at it from the pov of pvper who's constantly looking around for any attackers.

As you know, our divergence here comes from my strong disagreement with class based RPS balancing.

Therefore I have no opinion on the effectiveness of this design type, it's not for me, so I have no reason to have any.

Intrepid's PvE design is going to be divisive definitely because there are two (maybe three) pretty strongly opposed camps of PvE design and I don't believe mixing them in a game ever goes well. Their PvP design will therefore be emergent from that (or y'know, just 'terrible')

Whatever makes Steven happy in the end is what they should go with, but note that SO FAR what we've seen indicates we're getting 'what I want'. I'll let you know as soon as I see signs of that changing.

There's a lot more they have to account for when every class can wear every armor.

Post by Songcaller on 2022-12-02 18:30:02

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Post by Azherae on 2022-12-02 22:05:33

Well, we got a Mace.

A little light on the 'ability to judge healing as a flow' due to the mob choice, but nothing that stood out to me as a concern.

Convictions and 'Can do damage by targeting enemy with specific healing skill' (I feel like it was explicitly NOT clarified whether this was for undead mobs only or not, but we do at least know that it will not HEAL any mobs) will definitely enable a LOT more on the augments front, I believe, but we're still in the space of mainly knowing static skills.

Just adding that though, changes the entire 'discussion' relative to 'DPS vs not' on the Cleric side while keeping the number of active skills considerably lower and doubling down on the Risk vs Reward, since you are specifically choosing 'to use your cooldown as well as mana on a Damage burst vs waiting for a heal'.

Could result in different playstyles based on how Conviction is used, or could be equally easily disregarded so that pure-heal Clerics never have a reason to use Convictions or might have very limited usage for them due to their style.

It was a little hard to tell why the Regeneration style skill was so strong (perhaps it too, was affected by Conviction, but I doubt it).

I didn't see anything that, based on my experience from other games and speculative expectations, would make me think anything has gone in any non-positive directions, and that's including all the subtle stuff I do with my overanalyzing.

Smite with Holy Fire!

Y'know, if you're into that.

Post by maouw on 2022-12-02 23:28:45

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Post by Ludullu on 2022-12-02 23:55:53

Oh how the turns have tabled (not really). My preference for the "specialized" mob design was the same one that Steven holds. And in case those heals DO only hit undead mobs (which I doubt from what was said) - Steven might've stolen L2's farming scheme too :D
tzpc3fizdbr4.png
Though this was a purely damaging skill there, but it only worked against undead mobs. And the Bishop class that Steven mentioned used this to farm solo.

Though like I said, I do think that the ability will be able to damage any mobs, pretty much for the exact reasons Azherae pointed out.

Post by Azherae on 2022-12-03 03:32:20

Oh how the turns have tabled (not really). My preference for the "specialized" mob design was the same one that Steven holds.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this one, so bear with me a bit, it might be faster to guess.

Are you talking about weaknesses to elements/energies or damage types? Because that's the only thing I can connect from the given image.

I know that some games don't have any elemental weaknesses at all, and L2M apparently has it by area rather than by mob? So is that what you mean? If so, yes, the concept of 'specialized target' in a game with a full element system would apply to nearly everyone in various ways. Doubly so if weapons do different types of damage (I'm used to Blunt, Slashing, and Piercing).

Or are you referring to something else specific to the 'Using Light or Holy Magic on Undead, separate to their additional weaknesses to this Element'?
e.g. in FFXI, "Ghosts" have highly reduced damage from all three sources of physical damage but hitting them with a Banish spell temporarily removes this damage reduction along with the extra damage you get from them being weak to Light/Holy magic so you use it before your WeaponSkill.

Is there a similar thing? Or are you referring moreso to the 'Ability to heal them' and just 'that being a way you can farm with a Healer'?

The effects on the overall DPS and strategies of a Cleric or specifically Templar seem like they'd be affected based on which of these things you were talking about (for example because Oracles could always augment an attack skill with Elemental damage).

Post by Ludullu on 2022-12-03 04:03:02

Are you talking about weaknesses to elements/energies or damage types? Because that's the only thing I can connect from the given image.

I know that some games don't have any elemental weaknesses at all, and L2M apparently has it by area rather than by mob? So is that what you mean? If so, yes, the concept of 'specialized target' in a game with a full element system would apply to nearly everyone in various ways. Doubly so if weapons do different types of damage (I'm used to Blunt, Slashing, and Piercing).
Yep, I'm talking about this. Including the various types of weapon types. Though considering that Ashes will allow anyone use any weapon, I'd prefer this particular differentiation to have a smaller influence on archetype dmg values. And I explained why in my previous comment.

Ah, and I should've added that the ability from the picture could only be used against the undead, so the healers couldn't farm any other mob with it. Which is why I said that Steven would probably avoid that kind of design and referenced your reasoning for that decision.

Post by Ironhope on 2022-12-06 14:22:09

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