For PvP: 3-Hit Minimum, Versus Insta-Death?

We have not received permission from Tyranthraxus to share the quoted post.

In case it matters to avoid derailing your thread, this was never my point.

A thing that isn't engaging and therefore ABLE to fit the definition of fun for one side of the contest isn't fun and therefore how balanced it is is irrelevant .

I also believe that balance is vital for fun, I disagree that one can choose to have unbalanced things be fun because by the nature of being 'unbalanced' they are not fun for someone, usually.

I was attempting to argue against the concept presented by Dolyem that a thing which is not engaging or not fun should be considered as reasonable based on the fact that it COULD be balanced.

"Bombazar must fall."

We have not received permission from novercalis to share the quoted post.

Maybe so, but whereas the benefit of 'not balancing for 1v1' is MAYBE 'having more interesting group battles', the downside is that a lot of people will just not play or get sick of it quickly.

Whereas 'general balance' at the 1v1 level is pretty unlikely to lead to unbalanced 8v8 while retaining all those players and keeping them engaged.

There are definitely some people who actively want the 1v1 to be 'innately unbalanced', but so far they SEEM like the minority to me. Therefore this specific topic should probably be able to stand on its own merits if most of the community would like effort made toward 1v1 balance such as this.

We have not received permission from novercalis to share the quoted post.

I feel you missed the point of what I was saying, but I'll disengage after trying one more time to boil it down to the single point.

"1v1 Balance such as 'not dying in one hit' has very little to do with this."

If a Stealthed Rogue can oneshot your Mage, then being in a group will not change this, generally. Therefore it would be better that your mage is not Oneshot, so that your group would get a chance to do something about it other than maybe revenge-killing the Rogue.

We have not received permission from Dolyem to share the quoted post.

Once again I find myself with nothing useful to contribute to this point, but data is noted.

@Tyranthraxus would have to clarify any opinions on it, as the scenario given isn't one that clarifies if such abilities exist to be used, or would be reasonable to use or react with, or such.

Oh, this thread brings up another question. Should abilities with synergistic effects apply those effects to a green target? What about a stacking synergy where you might build up some sort of buff or amount of usages of an ability and could then release the final one onto your target?

In other words, should Intrepid worry about some "hidden" combo wombo that could result in a one-shot or do you think that those are just a gimmick that wouldn't really work in a practical application?

We have not received permission from TheDarkSorcerer to share the quoted post.

I'm not sure if the point being made here is "this is okay because it is balanced and fine for the game" or "players who don't counterbuild oneshot characters are noobs that need to git gud" or both.

I think that it might be necessary to clarify which of these you lean towards if 'the other side' of this argument is to respond properly, so please note it, if you don't mind.

As for me, in every scenario where I am talking about it, I'm referring to 'Stealthed Rogue with long-ish buffs to spike their damage using a backstab oneshot on a squishier character from stealth for an instant OR unreactable kill'. This is because I assumed this is what OP was referring to.

So CC is not required, even for greens. I would also personally consider Guild War situations, etc, where you don't have to worry about the opponent ever 'being green to you', which is why I ask for the clarification. I find Guild War scenarios to be the ones where this matters the most in other games.

We have not received permission from Tyranthraxus to share the quoted post.

Noted, thank you.

Moving on with your new point then, I agree that IF Synergies really just boil down to different debuffs/CC then they should not apply to Green players.

However I could easily be convinced that a reasonable Synergy that somehow results in a damage increase for the second attacker that puts a 'stack' on a player, should be allowed. I would still not want it to approach the level of 'lol ur deleted' but I'm sort of okay with high damage here.

This is with a lot of assumptions though, about how one would reasonably design Synergies. So overall, I'm okay with it IF:

1. The initiator is also a melee class (don't care if they have some stealth or not)
2. The ability that puts the 'debuff' on the opponent doesn't do big damage itself
3. The 'debuff' is instantly CONSUMED to do the damage as soon as the synergy is triggered (so you can't have one Fighter >> Two Rogues >> Dead.

There are other similar combinations I'm fine with that lead to big damage because two people, with counterplay options, will have both 'more trouble setting it up' and 'more risk in their positioning', and I mean the type of risk that the opponents will definitely get a chance to capitalize on.

I need to remember to ask if 'all Debuffs' are stopped for Greens or just 'all CC style ones'. I would figure Bleed and Defense Down still work, but I don't know that with certainty.

We have not received permission from Iskiab to share the quoted post.

I've seen and done countless one-shots in L2. Rogues and a particular warrior class were very good at those. And sometimes mages would also one-shot someone who was just a bit too low on m.def.

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Iskiab to share the quoted post.

I've seen and done countless one-shots in L2. Rogues and a particular warrior class were very good at those. And sometimes mages would also one-shot someone who was just a bit too low on m.def.

Early or late L2?

Mostly trying to figure out whether or not Steven's experience has a chance of aligning with Iskiab's, or if it would have been similar to yours and therefore would come to your conclusion about the point, instead.

It's always so enlightening to see all the different perspectives on gameplay for stuff like this...

Azherae wrote: »

Early or late L2?

Mostly trying to figure out whether or not Steven's experience has a chance of aligning with Iskiab's, or if it would have been similar to yours and therefore would come to your conclusion about the point, instead.

It's always so enlightening to see all the different perspectives on gameplay for stuff like this...

Early and mid updates iirc. Later ones gave a ton of countermeasures and overall hp/def values became higher so one-shots weren't as easy.

I do hope that Steven doesn't go for one-shots in Ashes cause as much as I loved critting someone for x3-5 their health, I'd assume that those people weren't quite as happy about that situation. I was just pointing out that there are in fact games that let you one-shots others. And those classes didn't even need huge debuff stacks or combo wombos. You'd just buff yourself up properly and go kill a few dudes (the crucial buffs usually lasted 30s-1min).