Splinter Topic: EXP Per Kill

So, one of the things I liked most about Alpha-1 was that it used the EXP per kill system that I'm used to from my favorite game.

Kill an enemy at your level solo and get 100 exp.

Kill an enemy 5 levels above you solo and get 300-400 exp.

Kill an enemy 8 levels above you solo and get 550 exp (it seemed like it capped here, so I didn't bother killing things 9-10 levels over, and they were hard to find because technically unless you sat around waiting for exactly those ones and only those ones, you'd level up too fast to get good data).

But Intrepid is always taking feedback and things are always subject to change, so I'm kind of interested to know if most people would want this changed, since I'm still really looking forward to it.

Games that just give a relatively flat exp value per enemy tend to have 'grind efficiency calculations' that I dislike, but maybe I've just never experienced it in a good way?

I'd personally prefer this kind of multiplier on top of predefined XP values on mobs, which relate to their difficulty. So the super skilled players could go kill not only higher lvled mobs, but also harder mobs and just powerlvl upwards like a rocket, while casual players could either just farm easy stuff at their own lvl solo or go fight harder mobs as a small group.

Due to how nodes will be leveling up, I doubt there'll be a ton of precise leveling guides, so I'm not as scared that there'll be some XP calculators or anything like that. I mean, I'm sure that after several months of data collecting there'll be some type of calculator which will also parse all the servers' Node info and will be able to formulate a very strict leveling plan AND will be able to adjust it on the fly, but that's kinda inevitable so I ultimately don't care.

Mainly cause if you just get the same amount of XP no matter who your enemy is - the calculator will just point you towards the easiest mobs around.

edit: groups would have their own additional multiplier, where at 8 people you'd get twice the XP per mob. Though this would obviously have to be properly balanced against particular mobs, so that groups couldn't just go to some super easy location, obliterate it to all hell and still get a ton of XP for barely any work.

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Oh, I guess I should have said favorite MMORPG (Final Fantasy XI).

Though I guess it could in fact take the 'favorite game' title honestly. Hoping that Ashes takes it soon!

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Right, but my point was, I know how this system works already, I was just 'experiencing a thing I'm already used to'.

Also, groups get multipliers. This is true in both Lineage 2 and FFXI, which is why when NiKr taught me this, I became more confident that it would stay.

Can I at least assume that you don't care and therefore aren't going to complain if it works the way it 'worked in Alpha', the way I like?

NiKr's point that people just target the easiest mobs is absolutely true, but it also helps with this, because what's easy for me isn't necessarily easy for a Tank, and so on. The last thing I want to see is 'let's fight these because they give the most exp, so let's try to get a standard group that are good at fighting this enemy type'.

The freedom to go around learning 'what mobs you are good at fighting' and things like that was always a joy to me.

Azherae wrote: »

Also, groups get multipliers. This is true in both Lineage 2 and FFXI, which is why when NiKr taught me this, I became more confident that it would stay.

Yeah, I thought I should've mentioned this in the og comment. Added this part too, cause I guess not all games might have that.

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What if there was no higher lvl multiplier for groups? So your best multi in a group would be x2, while skilled solo players could go up to x3-4.

NiKr wrote: »

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What if there was no higher lvl multiplier for groups? So your best multi in a group would be x2, while skilled solo players could go up to x3-4.

Note that this is also what I normally experience. FFXI's highest multiplier is 2.1x.

So you kill something 8 levels over you and you get 1100 split across 6 people.

Also, finally, something I can find pure historical data on !

I agree completely with @Nerror and I feel like this could easily be implemented in a different way.

While I'm not a big fan of 'hey, here's some mobs that are intended for groups', I feel like they could easily go 'because these mobs are intended for groups they give 500-800 base exp if at-level'.

At that point it's 'these are meant to be as challenging for a full group as other enemies are solo'.

So you could get 1000 base for '2 levels above you' etc. Point would be 'hey, make these dungeon mobs approx equally rewarding to a party as fighting strong mobs solo'. There's already a benefit to Dungeoning, dungeons are big with less competition and maybe treasure.

And since only the craziest would fight these with less people/solo and it would take really long, they'd still be a weird solo content OPTION.

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I'm kinda against small parties having x1.+ because this would probably lead to 2-3-man groups just farming solo mobs super fast with better xp than if they were doing it solo. And this usually destroys the whole point of a solo location. People can always find a group in a solo location, but when they do they should be highly encouraged to move to a better location because they can now farm better mobs.

Also, while we're on topic of group vs solo farming, should drop rates get tuned to the player amounts too or should they always stay the same? I'm not completely sure which one I'd prefer. I'm used to static rates, but I'm also used to killing huge groups of mobs rather than just farming one at a time (outside of when I try to kill group mobs solo).

NiKr wrote: »

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I'm kinda against small parties having x1.+ because this would probably lead to 2-3-man groups just farming solo mobs super fast with better xp than if they were doing it solo. And this usually destroys the whole point of a solo location. People can always find a group in a solo location, but when they do they should be highly encouraged to move to a better location because they can now farm better mobs.

Also, while we're on topic of group vs solo farming, should drop rates get tuned to the player amounts too or should they always stay the same? I'm not completely sure which one I'd prefer. I'm used to static rates, but I'm also used to killing huge groups of mobs rather than just farming one at a time (outside of when I try to kill group mobs solo).

I can't speak to this because FFXI solves this in an entirely different way (which I obviously biasedly like but CANNOT work in Ashes without being recreated EXACTLY).

Also, FFXI's exp system leads to a lot of flaws in player behaviours related to grouping that I am hoping Ashes will solve (though, by claiming that the optimal party size is 8, they have added a great challenge to their own design that I'm very interested to see the solutions for)

Azherae wrote: »

Also, FFXI's exp system leads to a lot of flaws in player behaviours related to grouping that I am hoping Ashes will solve (though, by claiming that the optimal party size is 8, they have added a great challenge to their own design that I'm very interested to see the solutions for)

Btw, I read a bit of that link and saw the XP chain mechanic. Would you want that in Ashes or is that one of the things that wouldn't work here? I'm a bit torn on this one too, cause it both encourages higher lvl players to help out lower lvled ones, but also helps out bots farmers level up their bots way faster.

I'd probably assume that the first outweighs the second one in its overall usefulness to the game, but I'm not sure. We also don't know how the mentor thing will work, so this kind of interaction might already be present in the game's design.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Also, FFXI's exp system leads to a lot of flaws in player behaviours related to grouping that I am hoping Ashes will solve (though, by claiming that the optimal party size is 8, they have added a great challenge to their own design that I'm very interested to see the solutions for)

Btw, I read a bit of that link and saw the XP chain mechanic. Would you want that in Ashes or is that one of the things that wouldn't work here? I'm a bit torn on this one too, cause it both encourages higher lvl players to help out lower lvled ones, but also helps out bots farmers level up their bots way faster.

I'd probably assume that the first outweighs the second one in its overall usefulness to the game, but I'm not sure. We also don't know how the mentor thing will work, so this kind of interaction might already be present in the game's design.

I have no opinion on that. EXP chains are at the 'nitty gritty' level of the game. It was just meant to be a reward for being REALLY REALLY good at clearing an area, because FFXI's battle system involves more 'mathematical odds' due to outright being penalized against higher level enemies (accuracy and damage).

I wouldn't say it was a flaw in the game, but it contributed to some.

Since you normally like to know, I'll give you the basic reasoning why I can't simulate this easily for Ashes. It goes right back to our friend the TP Gauge.

Players are rewarded for smaller groups in FFXI because assuming you are melee to make the mob die faster, it is also gaining 2x as much Gauge from 2 people hitting it. Sure it's dying faster too, but depending on the mob, that extra Gauge gain matters a lot.

People, of course, explicitly went for 'mobs where the gauge gain mattered as little as possible'.

But the TP gauge is the basic balancer for 'small parties trying to kill things faster than solo players'. You can't just 'slap two or 3 randoms together and expect the mobs to just be easier' basically.

EXP Chains are a reward for 'fighting things that are so hard to kill relatively, that you are in constant danger from the amount of Gauge you are giving them'. It was the 'ok the mechanics say this should be SUPER hard but clearly y'all are badasses so here's some reward'.

It fails on a certain subset of mobs where the risks are too low compared to others.

Mob design could fix this (and later, often did), but it was a definite large flaw that influenced the 'common leveling paths' in the game quite negatively. I hope to see nothing on that scale in Ashes, but they don't even HAVE a system for this, so I expect it will have L2 style solutions instead.

Azherae wrote: »

Mob design could fix this (and later, often did), but it was a definite large flaw that influenced the 'common leveling paths' in the game quite negatively. I hope to see nothing on that scale in Ashes, but they don't even HAVE a system for this, so I expect it will have L2 style solutions instead.

That's the issue though, L2 didn't have those solutions either 9-lvl difference between party members would prevent the lowest player from getting XP, so I guess that's a "solution"? But you'd usually just get around that with a few farming alts set up at different lvl ranges and just send the leveling group from one to another.

Ashes will definitely have things a bit more difficult due to nodes changing and no TPs between them, so it would just take more time to go through the whole process. I'll mainly keep any potential feedback to myself until we see more about the mentor program and XPing balancing.

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I guess this could be tested and balanced, but, as much as Intrepid wants everyone to group up, there's gonna be a ton of solo players. Solo locations will probably be somewhat limited, cause dungeons (or just open group areas) will have the best loots. If you pack enough solos into one location, that slow respawn rate will create a ton of waiting between mobs and then a ton of conflict for each mob that respawns.

And while I'd love this to be the case and some oldschoolers might prefer the chill farming with waiting times between mobs, I'm not sure how many solo players would be satisfied with that kind of gameplay.

I'm not saying to change the game just to appease all the solos, but I feel like designing this stuff in a way where it detracts groups but doesn't stand in the way of good solo play would be much better. L2 tried to do this by spawning loot-less mobs that would attack anyone who was farming a solo location while in a group, but I think that's also bad design.

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It's all the same to me, really.

There's always a point at which it becomes 'death' and a point at which it is 'expected'.

I believe the last time we had this discussion it was also implied that there were quite a few classes that could go beyond your wishes/expectations within EQ.

And similarly, FFXI is the same. For a very long time, most players could NOT beat anything 3 levels over them, and 'even match' WAS a coinflip for people until they got quite geared. Don't take my numbers as meaningful, I am one of those 'insanely practiced soloers' in these games.

If you wanted to get it to the point where 3+ was killing ME, then in all arrogance, at-level opponents would just stomp the regular playerbase.