The "Tank" : a bright invention back in the day I have grown to hate!

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I have programmed that. I programmed that YEARS ago. It isn't actually 'AI' at all, but I've ALSO made the 'AI' version (it doesn't work because most of what people call AI in games doesn't actually function without a preprogrammed base, given how AI works - to be clear, the thing you are suggesting is not 'AI' and no amount of 'AI' robustness would properly lead to it)

Then I didn't stick with it, because my test players abused it, just the way they would abuse it if Intrepid coded it today.

This is STILL part of the design of the hate mechanics in games I make, but it's also still not the primary/best one.

The mob is supposed to care HOW you hurt it, maybe how you hurt its friends, perhaps 'action types you take', but all your current examples are 'innates' (unless you're going to drop the resource or trade it around mid-battle, it's an innate).

I definitely understand that for many people, they have a specific concept of what Tank is and how it is defined based on their past experiences or desires and will come to say 'this is what it is', but since I don't have that experience and 'Tank' to me is mechanically 'does this', with a tendency for the character type you describe to be good at it, then I think others are the ones being restrictive, and what you're being restrictive to is PvE mob design.

In order for the 'heavily armored fighter' to be the Tank to the point where Steven gets to name the whole Archetype Tank and claim that they will be able to perform that role in most content, then PvE would have to revolve almost exclusively around that.

But we've got a reference from the wiki.

Tanks will have different build options: [3]

Evasion tanks
Control tanks
Shield tanks

Maybe the related link no longer applies since it was Jeff speaking (you can barely even hear that he says Evasion Tank).

But I suppose I can't prove that when someone says 'Evasion Tank' they don't mean 'light armor distraction with a small chance of being hit by mechanics and basic attacks due to this, not actually standing around to take hits at all'.

Either way, as usual, I would be remiss in my duty to those who 'ask me to be here' if I did not point out that your perception of 'Game AI' is incorrect (more in the realm of 'not even informed enough to be wrong')

Having multiple significant threats does not change the situation either. Part of the difficulty of converting a TableTop game mechanic to a live MMO one is the capacity for players to move 'faster than the system' in terms of timing, the granularity of 'turns' and 'initiative' causes this to stop working.

Source: me, having poked at synchronizing the two in Cardinal for many years now.

But that's all I got, so technically, please ignore me, I make these posts not so much for you, but for the failing hopes of a desperate few...

@NishUK - Yes.

There are games that already do this. They are not necessarily common nor recent. By some standards they are not 'good'. By some people's standards who I have argued with in the past, they are 'not good' BECAUSE they don't do the 'standard Tank' thing.

The games I am talking about generally have a similar design form to Ashes. Freedom of weapon choice, decent to high flexibility in build choices depending on the game, and the part we don't have confirmed from Ashes yet, complex threat/hate mechanics that go a bit beyond 'hey you did a Taunt so it says you have the mob's attention now'.

Monster Hunter World has 'threat mechanics', they're complicated enough that they're hard to perfectly test, but not hard to theorize about (we know that this exists and isn't just imagination because they explicitly have a food buff that causes the monster to attack you more and we know it isn't a random statistic being changed because THAT part is testable). We also know that when they had their FFXIV crossover they used it more explicitly to make it more understandable to FFXIV fans who might want to try.

FFXI has complex threat mechanics that, in aggregate, make sure that for many fights, you can't 'just tank', and it has a group PvP activity where Tanks continue to tank more or less correctly, and this is a Tab Targeted Stat based early 2000s game.

Onigiri is an instanced-dungeon heavy MMORPG with weapon swapping and very little gear of note to speak of where tanking is similar to Monster Hunter and based on buffs and positioning, but there's almost certainly a hate/threat meter in that game, it's just good enough that only two bosses are susceptible to 'obviously cheesing it'.

That's why I say that it just seems weird/as if you lacked experiences. You're describing something passionately, and I 'already play this game' and I just 'want a new similar game'. I will gladly join your 'side' if this becomes a point of contention within community feedback/at Intrepid.

But so far, it doesn't seem to be.

Nearly everyone seems to share your opinion, so if Intrepid just makes a new version of what I already play, none of these concerns are relevant.

It ends up LOOKING like you just 'don't think these games exist so you want Intrepid to try something new or think outside the box'. But they do exist. I'm here because I know that Ashes actually has had at least some minor inspiration from them, and if you wanted to take 'the best part of each MMO', I think nearly everyone agrees that L2 and Archeage are not where to look for PvE of 'ye olde Era' so WoW, FFXI and EQ2 would probably have been the targets for that.

But as of now you're basically 'complaining that you want something to be done better' based on what MIGHT be your imagined interpretation of what it means when just the TERM is used, and technically perpetuating it and wasting your own time .

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Ok I think the mods won't fault me for this one.

What the FUCK are you even talking about?

You gave me the shitty Mag7 tier answer, why would you want a specific and direct breakdown of your entire reply from ME of all people? Are you just trolling me?

Or are you doubly proving my point? Do you believe that your examples are hard to comprehend? Or is it that you're asking for something 'so far beyond your examples that it would be unreasonable to ask you to put it all into one forum post'? Cause I would totally understand that.

Are you just projecting? Because that's all I can see here. In my magnanimous arrogance I'm willing to overlook this non-answer and engage with you if you try again.

EDIT: And since I've been (quite successfully if intentional) trolled either by Nish or myself, I'm finally 'callin' in the squad' if the answer I get matches my Nish model.

In the meantime enjoy the description of a fight where we change tank between a Monk, Dark Knight and Healer while shifting around the responsibilities and sometimes order based on what day it is in game .

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Alrighty, exactly as modeled.

Tanks a bunch.

EDIT: I am a Healer in FFXI. I wear this at the level 40 tier. I do not own other level 40 Tier gear because why would I when I have the glory of



For comparison the equivalent body piece for the 'Heavy Armor' classes.



Just more bonus stuff so that my posts don't end up being snarky pointlessness. I've learned from the past!

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Now hold on just a sec here... I really need to know what manner of sad MMOs you've played that made YOU specifically think dodge is unrewarding in PvE. I think dodge is fun, I think it's rewarding and I've done and seen ridiculous uses of it in games. So depending on your answer here, it might simply mean you're not qualified to suggest improving things because this is sounding grim.

The rest of this segment is just flashy animation not mechanics, no issue with Intrepid doing that, their work on the Ranger animation is great, I am talking about the mechanic of dodge. 'Extracting life essence as a healer' is already implemented in Ashes I think, someone will surely correct me if wrong.

I don't want to make my post unnecessarily long so yeah, just that: why do you think dodge is unrewarding?

No wonder Azherae's group decided to step away from the game a bit jfc