Today 4man group in a 8 man area shows a larger issue in terms of difficulty

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Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-27 23:50:41

They constantly pulled more mobs who then would almost oneshot some of them. And that big wipe of the tank during the blue forcefield against several mobs showed that a tank can't just defend the whole party in that forcefield.

An 8-man group would risk pulling even more mobs, so the danger would be higher. We also have a super basic AI on these mobs, so we don't know how difficult they'd be on release. And as for def/hp/resist values on mobs - that can always be tweaked if needed.

Overall I'd say that the danger lvls are already nice. AI will push it even higher and stats will finetune it if needed.

Post by Azherae on 2023-01-27 23:58:06

They constantly pulled more mobs who then would almost oneshot some of them. And that big wipe of the tank during the blue forcefield against several mobs showed that a tank can't just defend the whole party in that forcefield.

An 8-man group would risk pulling even more mobs, so the danger would be higher. We also have a super basic AI on these mobs, so we don't know how difficult they'd be on release. And as for def/hp/resist values on mobs - that can always be tweaked if needed.

Overall I'd say that the danger lvls are already nice. AI will push it even higher and stats will finetune it if needed.

Disagree, hard.

This was bad, specifically because it was a showcase.

If it wasn't doing a great job of showing mobs, it wasn't doing a great job of showing Tanking. If the Mobs weren't 'ready to be Tanked', then we can't learn anything about Tanking from watching them be fought.

So what are we to do other than assume that this is what we get?

My point is moreso that if you wanted to showcase Tanking for an hour you'd choose the area where the mobs have some half-decent AI and the pulls were meaningful, if that was the sort of gameplay you wanted to promote. Either they don't have such an area, or their 'technical difficulties' were related to 'wanting to do this and something bugging out'.

Looking aside from the fact that the Aegis forcefield ability is technically just silly, I'm interested in something from you specifically before I get too negative. Is this really what you expect in these games? Is this 'danger' and 'gameplay' for you? (lmk if this comes off as vitriolic, I can't tell).

Tweaking the amount of damage a group does to a mob or the HP values the mob has doesn't actually change the difficulty or the gameplay. "The Mob kills you fast" isn't 'difficulty' when you are already riding your cooldowns and spamming your CCs.

I don't think I saw Steven make a single recognizable 'choice' in that stream.

Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-28 00:23:59

Looking aside from the fact that the Aegis forcefield ability is technically just silly, I'm interested in something from you specifically before I get too negative. Is this really what you expect in these games? Is this 'danger' and 'gameplay' for you? (lmk if this comes off as vitriolic, I can't tell).
Yep :) My bottom line is really low, so while watching that showcase I was literally internally screaming "let me play this fucking game". The forcefield, if I understood its mechanics correctly, is pretty much an ability that I was imagining for a tank. A "others get hit, but the damage comes my way"-type thing, but a full player-controlled thing, both on the tank's side and on the partymates' side.

But again though, this is the base level that already has me excited. Adding proper AI, adding proper ability sets on mobs, proper mob group mentality and proper stat interactions (across all types of stats) would obviously elevate the gameplay ever higher.

Would I've loved to see all of that right now? HELL FUCKING YES. Am I ok with what was shown? Also yes. In other words, I'm doing a similar thing to what you were doing during some other showcases. I'm trying to see where this could go with future development. I might be completely wrong with my assumptions, but all of us are wrong in them until proven otherwise. Mine are just a few levels below yours, because I can be pleased by a much more simpler gameplay.

P.S. the comment could come off as vitriolic in text, but I'd like to think that I get intentions correctly most of the time, so I didn't apply any vitriolic sentiment to it.
Tweaking the amount of damage a group does to a mob or the HP values the mob has doesn't actually change the difficulty or the gameplay. "The Mob kills you fast" isn't 'difficulty' when you are already riding your cooldowns and spamming your CCs.
Some mobs could get the same CC diminishing return mechanic as players will have and some (or same) mobs could have proper resistances to the abilities whose CDs you'd be riding.

But I'd definitely like to hear what else I'm missing in term of difficulty. Cause to me, the danger of every hit is the difficulty. If I die - I have failed. If I've failed - the difficulty was higher than what I could manage. Steven said that they're not working towards pure iframes on dodges, so that already boosts the potential danger of each mob hit. And one- or two-shots from mobs seem quite dangerous to me, if I can't just endlessly dodge them w/o taking a single hit.
I don't think I saw Steven make a single recognizable 'choice' in that stream.
It's also Steven though. He's juggling a top of "showcase" stuff, while also not being the peak lvl player. Though yes, this was definitely a pretty basic showcase, but they've addressed that part in the stream. And as much as I'd like them to be finished with all the detailed development already - they're not, so I'm judging exactly what I'm seeing.

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Post by Azherae on 2023-01-28 00:31:54

Looking aside from the fact that the Aegis forcefield ability is technically just silly, I'm interested in something from you specifically before I get too negative. Is this really what you expect in these games? Is this 'danger' and 'gameplay' for you? (lmk if this comes off as vitriolic, I can't tell).
Yep :) My bottom line is really low, so while watching that showcase I was literally internally screaming "let me play this fucking game". The forcefield, if I understood its mechanics correctly, is pretty much an ability that I was imagining for a tank. A "others get hit, but the damage comes my way"-type thing, but a full player-controlled thing, both on the tank's side and on the partymates' side.

But again though, this is the base level that already has me excited. Adding proper AI, adding proper ability sets on mobs, proper mob group mentality and proper stat interactions (across all types of stats) would obviously elevate the gameplay ever higher.

Would I've loved to see all of that right now? HELL FUCKING YES. Am I ok with what was shown? Also yes. In other words, I'm doing a similar thing to what you were doing during some other showcases. I'm trying to see where this could go with future development. I might be completely wrong with my assumptions, but all of us are wrong in them until proven otherwise. Mine are just a few levels below yours, because I can be pleased by a much more simpler gameplay.

P.S. the comment could come off as vitriolic in text, but I'd like to think that I get intentions correctly most of the time, so I didn't apply any vitriolic sentiment to it.
Tweaking the amount of damage a group does to a mob or the HP values the mob has doesn't actually change the difficulty or the gameplay. "The Mob kills you fast" isn't 'difficulty' when you are already riding your cooldowns and spamming your CCs.
Some mobs could get the same CC diminishing return mechanic as players will have and some (or same) mobs could have proper resistances to the abilities whose CDs you'd be riding.

But I'd definitely like to hear what else I'm missing in term of difficulty. Cause to me, the danger of every hit is the difficulty. If I die - I have failed. If I've failed - the difficulty was higher than what I could manage. Steven said that they're not working towards pure iframes on dodges, so that already boosts the potential danger of each mob hit. And one- or two-shots from mobs seem quite dangerous to me, if I can't just endlessly dodge them w/o taking a single hit.
I don't think I saw Steven make a single recognizable 'choice' in that stream.
It's also Steven though. He's juggling a top of "showcase" stuff, while also not being the peak lvl player. Though yes, this was definitely a pretty basic showcase, but they've addressed that part in the stream. And as much as I'd like them to be finished with all the detailed development already - they're not, so I'm judging exactly what I'm seeing.

Alright, got it, thank you.

I believe that the starters of the actual Feedback Topic work well as an indicator of what they want to know, so there's that.

I'm tempering my expectations here precisely because I know that I came into this game when 'the person whose influence makes me want to play it' was still involved, and that has since changed. If L2's stuff is similar to this, then the chance that this is Steven's actual expectation/idea of gameplay is at least decent.

Because yes, I'm also extrapolating based on what they showed, and it seems like you and I do actually have a fairly similar perspective/opinion of what the gameplay will be like. That's 'my concern'.

Basically you're my 'litmus test' for if this is likely to be 'hey they're not done' vs 'This is what they are trying to make'. So I thank you, and I'll relay it to the others.

Post by Ludullu on 2023-01-28 00:41:31

Basically you're my 'litmus test' for if this is likely to be 'hey they're not done' vs 'This is what they are trying to make'. So I thank you, and I'll relay it to the others.
Your concern is still valid though. Very much so. Cause this showcase was maybe a step or two below L2's gameplay. L2 just had addition of different resistances (to elements and weapons) and a bit more mob group AI in some locations. But outside of that - you just had mobs with big attacks and huge hp or you had thin weak mobs for more of a solo/small group farming.

So take anything I say with a hugeass rock of salt. I dearly hope that Steven listens to his other devs and implements all the stuff I mentioned and more on top that I don't even know, but, as you pointed out, w/o Jeff we've got no idea if that'll ever happen.

Mainly I'd say, wait at least until their AI showcase and if you, with much better experience, see that it might not go in any direction that you like - you might as well be assured that the game will not overcome Steven's preferences in mmos.

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Post by Azherae on 2023-01-29 18:00:48

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Lots of people like easy.

The majority of people like easy, flashy, and power-fantasy.

Nothing about the overall leveling time implies the content will actually be hard, there are games that still 'don't do this'. EXP debt will apply to all the people of below average skill for whom what you call 'easy' is a nice challenge', the people that Steven is 'trying to appeal to with his Showman Persona'.

Those people can fall, just as Steven and the Devs can fall, against that content.

L2 and AA have hard content? Like, relative to the type of thing we are talking about here. I thought they had 'will delete you if you pull too many or go to an area too far over recommended level' content. I'm willing to accept that as 'hard', though.

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Post by Azherae on 2023-01-29 18:19:37

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Can you imagine the coolness of not being able to kill the magey one outside because when you attack it, Lord Oakenbane sends 3-4 grunts out of the fallen keep to help and you have to manage it before they arrive?

Or if you decided 'ok let's skip that guy and go straight for the big boss' and then Lord Oakenbane 'wails' and the other starts to move in so it arrives when Oakenbane is at like half health and now you have to deal with the mage too?

Nostalgic.

Post by novercalis on 2023-01-29 22:17:40

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