Which games have real living worlds?

<GM> 1d64
<&Dice> GM, 1d64: 43

"no company monitors player vs mob performance in dungeons and areas and adapt the challenge, if you bring a party that can overkill the dungeon, then the mobs will never adapt their strategy in any way"

In Abyssea (a series of endgame zones with strong bosses in FFXI) if you repeatedly kill enemies in an area, when they respawn, they'll be at a higher level. This can ramp up the danger they represent to a group significantly.

Similarly in Aht Urhgan (an area from an earlier expansion), there's a mechanic where a structure called an Archaic Mirror can spawn in areas controlled by beastmen, which will power up nearby enemies, and increase the rate at which those beastmen prepare for attacks on the area's main city. Players can defeat the bosses guarding the mirrors and break them in order to disrupt the beastmen's ability to prepare attacks.

13:59 < GM> 1d64
13:59 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 49
13:59 < GM> a npc will always pay the same amount of gold even if there's people running that quests hundreds oft imes a day

This is moreso a problem in Fantasy MMOs, but again, we're back to "Campaign" where people don't even ask you to do things they don't need but you can still get a bit of a reward, and much more strongly, Elite again.

If I go log in now, I'll fly around to each of our systems to figure out which ones are low on specific things, the system will track everything about trade routes and deliveries, both by NPCs and players.

If there's a lot of food moving from say, Bodhengue to Vyat, they won't spawn missions asking for any. If it's been too long since serious food shipping was done, missions with this goal will spawn. Missions will change every 10m, so we often find ourselves in a situation where some easy mission type pops up for a day, but then we fulfill the 'underlying demand' for whatever commodity, and the mission/quest stops being offered.

Of course, it at least tries to track the prices similar to EVE, so there's times like my favorite, when our NPC faction leader declares a Public Holiday and everyone wants to get drunk and they start buying Beer, Wine and Liquor at exorbitant markups and you can make tons of credits just hauling them back and forth.

Just watch out for all the extra pirates that will spawn!

1d64: 26

"you can deposit in the bank many tons of materials, like many tons of coal (at least in AoC you can't deposit materials in the bank)"

Eh. Depends, but this is not largely the case in a couple mmos.I n FFXI you have a hard cap on the amount of items in your auction house. Your storage has hard caps as well. There are stack limits on top of all that so you can literally only own so many of any given resource. Good luck trying to filter all of your hoard through the market place at the rate of like 20 stacks at a time... (There have been many historical debates on why this stifles the economy and is problematic, but I won't get into them.)

But looking at some 'newer' ones BDO has a pretty hard limit on this as well due to the limitations on storage. I'm pretty sure there is a max amount of storage spaces you can own. You are also kind of limited due to weight limits as well. Not as good as stack limits in my opinion but it's still a limitation on what you describe.

Inventory restrictions are so common in games and at a certain point it isn't about realism, it's about restricting botting behavior in my opinion.

As long as there is a limit on stack size/weight limits, inventory size, and how much you can post to market or sell at once there will be games that meet this particular point. I just listed the ones that are the most low hanging fruit to me.

14:12 < GM> 1d64
14:12 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 46

there's always the same amount of available quests everyday

See previous answer.

FFXI, Onigiri and BDO change quests by all sorts of weird parameters too. There's at least one FFXI quest that can only be done by one person on the Server at a time, I think (if I remember right, if they don't finish it in either 1 or 3 hours it times out and someone else can take it).

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This one happens in FFXI AND Elite Dangerous.

FFXI: When areas change controlling factions in Conquest (different from Campaign where they just come or go), the NPC guards responsible for the outposts in those regions change out. Different NPCs from different home nations stand guard and provide services to players in those areas.

Elite Dangerous: When a station changes hands between factions due to the outcome of a war or election in the system, the staff at that station changes. New names, new portraits, new text. Every time. If the old faction takes control back, the old NPCs will be back.

Beyond that, I know it's not quite the same thing, but the NPC who handles interacting with you to give you missions, etc, for each faction changes based on how much that faction likes you. I get missions from the Vice President of my faction most of the time, but if I fuck up for a while, she'll send one of her staff to deal with me instead.

<GM> 1d64
<&Dice> GM, 1d64: 22

"you can never befriend NPCs"

OBJECTION!

Here's another thing you might have forgotten about FFXI - every major settlement in the game has its own Fame system. When you're just starting off as an Adventurer, nobody knows who you are, and random passerby won't just trust you with important quests out of the blue; you start off with only basic sidequests available, and can advance your Fame through (off the top of my head) nine total levels by doing sidequests in cities, by advancing your rank within your home nation, and generally just helping people out and being a decent, trustworthy person.

As your Fame advances, NPC merchant prices in a given settlement are lowered, and people will start to trust you with more important quests - the sorts of things they would only feel comfortable asking a reputable Adventurer for help with.


While Black Desert Online is objectively not as well-made as FFXI, it also has a detailed system for befriending NPCs - you can interact with just about anyone and potentially strike up a rapport with them if you have pre-existing Knowledge (gained from exploring the world, talking to other NPCs, etc), and this also can be used to unlock new quests over time.

14:16 < GM> 1d64
14:16 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 59
14:17 < GM> storylines are always individual, no storyline is shared and influenced by a group of players sharing the same storyline

This is usually something that the Devs have to handle through some system, and Fantasy MMOs do have some trouble with it, but I think I've seen this, and I know that FFXI BCNMs (boss arenas basically for the unfamiliar) remember the group you were with when you cleared it if you cleared it the fastest, until Server reset.

So if you are the only group who normally clears a fight, and you go back, it will remind you 'The clear record for this battlefield is 7:50, by a group of Adventurers including (randomly picks one party member from the saved list and gives their name)'.

Otherwise, I think mostly games leave this up to players, and then the Devs, if they are good 'DMs/GMs', will acknowledge and add things based on that stuff.

We've got a lot of this in Elite for us personally (I think I've mentioned we RP pretty seriously, we just don't ask anyone else to RP with us if they don't seem into that).

I'm in charge of 'incorporating random shifts in the semi-living world into our storyline'.

1d64: 10

"players have no influence in the world lore"

Elite dangerous community objectives tend to effect the over arching galactic narrative. And it isn't even just 'hey we need x amount of player effort for y to happen.' Some goals in the past were specifically competitive where opposing major faction aligned player bases would compete to get their narrative locked in. Sometimes it's even intra faction competition for things like presidents of the Alliance or Federation.

14:27 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 31
14:27 < GM> 1d64

no factions grow or diminish

https://inara.cz/elite/minorfaction/76627/

Those guys are nice, if a bit strict, I think.

We're doing okayish too, relative to our goals, since we shrunk our rival/annoying enemy NPC faction down to minimal influence in their own home system after we took it over.

It's always fun to watch the big Player Factions jostle and negotiate for territory, but diplomacy with the real heavy hitters is pretty binary. Either 'yeah we don't care' or 'You will hand over this system or be crushed'.

Of course, since there's always independent players with other interests, it gets really interesting. I think a specific one has been trying to take the home system of one of our suppliers recently and being surprised by the amount of opposition they get because everyone likes that Corporation.

I hope they never win.

1d64: 14

"area levels never change"

Well I already explained the system for that with the Abyssea mob difficulty increases. I personally understand the desire for continually increasing challenge. But there are other ways to do it. Again using FFXI since it's easiest. Notorious monster systems that spawn randomly off a lottery, or by a farmed pop item, or by a certain weather condition. These 'nm's' are usually much higher level than other monsters in the area. Sure they eventually become farmed, but if you fight a mob at too high a level usually there is a penalty on drops to encourage farming stuff at level.

I also like the fact that Abyssea and Moblin Maze Mongers (essentially a random dungeon generator in the game with some player influence on parameters) have time limits. I think time limited yet open world zoning does a lot of heavy lifting for Abyssea feeling fresher for longer. At the end of the day it's the lack of sliding difficulty, variation, and other things that can help prolong the freshness of a zone or area that I feel are the real problem here that you keep trying to 'address'.

<GM> 1d64
<&Dice> GM, 1d64: 4

"mini-bosses are always in the same area"

In FFXI, there's a wandering Sandworm boss, which moves around between different zones. It can be basically anywhere within seven different zones, and tracking it down after it respawns is part of the challenge.

There are also a ton of bosses with weird, somewhat unpredictable spawn conditions. Some spawn within a general area some amount of time (hours or days) after they were last killed, others spawn in place of another similar mob somewhere in a zone, meaning that where they are can be unpredictable.

14:35 < GM> 1d64
14:35 <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 56
14:35 < GM> a player guild can never ally a mob faction and declare war against another player guild

In Elite we do this by proxy war.

We don't want to fight our enemy, so we keep pushing up the influence of the nearest Faction in influence to lock them into wars and elections with each other and prolong those conflicts or use the lower influence faction as a 'shield' to prevent the one we don't want to engage from getting similar support.

We also use this in the other way, by bringing everyone 'close', then triggering a war between the rulers and the next strongest, then doing a bunch of humanitarian and infrastructural stuff to leapfrog over them both in the public eye.

There's situations in which you can be the most well-liked/powerful faction in a Star system without actually owning a single facility.

The game even has a system for this, if you keep it up enough and reach 70% influence/approval and DON'T already own the system, it triggers a 'coup' where you get to go to war with the controlling faction despite them being at like 11% influence, and have a chance to take the system from them without all the hassles.

"I don't always pit my enemies against each other while I focus on prosperity, but when I do, I Live Long And Prosper"

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Well, this goes back to the FFXI Campaign Ops I was mentioning earlier. You can be contracted to:

• Collect intelligence on enemy-held positions.
• Gather specific necessary supplies for your army.
• Take out enemy supply convoys.
• Deliver supplies to contested territory.
• Escort new personnel to the fort they're being assigned to.
• Determine strategy for deploying NPC supply convoys based on enemy positions, etc.
• Patrol for suspicious/dangerous stuff left in the city by enemy operatives.
• Kill bandits.
• Move some of the army's mounts around, based on logistical requirements.
• Transport dangerous materials (which inflict random penalties on the bearer)
• Clear out dangerous mobs that are interfering with supply lines
• Disrupt a stealth assault force your spies identified.
• Train your army's forces.
• Reinforce defenders at specific locations.
• Sneak up and plant bombs at enemy positions.
• Photograph enemy forces.
• Sabotage enemy weapons research.
• When things are going well: Assassinate enemy commanders.
• And finally, when everything is going perfectly for the allied forces, when players have completed enough missions to prepare the way: Attempt to assassinate the enemy leader in his throne room.

Not all of these missions are available at all times. What contracts you can accept depends on the status of the war, and the various different armies in nuanced ways. I didn't even bother listing all of them. Each of these missions has concrete effects on the status of your forces as well.

Dynamic assignment of contracts based on the military position and state of 5 different armies? Check.
Killing, Producing, Hauling, Suplies, Repairs? Check, check, check, check and check.
Jobs have goals? Check.
Even protecting specific dungeons (both from dangerous mobs and enemy assault groups): Check.

And I didn't even start on Elite Dangeorus.

[2:33:43 pm] <GM> 1d64
[2:33:43 pm] <&Dice> GM, 1d64: 28

"your character never gets sore of running for hours, in the next day the character can run for hours again"

First of all, a sufficiently conditioned humanoid - such as an Adventurer - CAN, in fact, run for hours every day. Humans are exceptional endurance runners for many reasons, and our ancestors hunted successfully largely due to this. I recommend looking up a documentary on YouTube or such if you want more details on this.

Secondly, that's just an unfun mechanic. There are definitely cases where video games of nearly every type make what TV Tropes calls "Acceptable Breaks From Reality". Normally, if someone ran for hours every day, they'd need a lot of food for upkeep, you could get dehydrated if you sweat too much, and so on, and so on, and so on, but with very few exceptions, most games and gamers simply don't play games to deal with that stuff.

If I log into FFXI or Skyrim or BDO or whathaveyou and run around for hours, it's because I want to experience the fun of exploring those worlds, and having to do a bunch of upkeep simply to keep running is just tedium and pulls one out of the gameplay loop.

There is a time and place for these types of mechanics, but there is a reason the Survival genre is its own THING - you basically have to build the entire game around that level of realism from the ground up.

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I don't think so?

Sure, some people might be frustrated but I personally like it when it happens in either game.

I was really thrilled the other day because I had two separate Pirate Faction contracts out on me. Normally when this happens, I try to get the pirates to fight each other instead of me if they're not from the same faction, and I thought the game just always did this.

I nearly got shot down because of it. I had destroyed 3/4 enemies from both contracts and the last 2 pulled me out of witchspace at the same time in a Medium Security system. Easy, right? Just distract them with each other until security arrives.

Nope. Joined forces instantly, not just the usual 'we're ignoring each other', but explicitly PARTIED UP and started coordinating attacks.

Best PvE battle of that month.

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Yeah, but players SUCK. They'd just kill ANY NPC that could be killed. Every single one. Some asshole will do it for teh lulz. And now that affects everyone. This might be okay, sort of, except that it'll become some people's whole thing . Even if not, no NPC will last more than a day.

It wouldn't even matter if it was "influencing it somehow so that X NPC gets in an accident eventually due to taking more risky trade routes". Somebody would do it just to grief someone else who loved that guy. The more famous and well-regarded the NPC, the more likely it would be.

So even if you did this, you couldn't let players influence it. And if you only let them influence one side, overpopulation (or players pushing for new children to push out the elderly, etc). No way to win.

<GM> 1d64
<&Dice> GM, 1d64: 33

"npcs can never have any emotions or opinions about people, they can't be influenced in any way, you can't wear a mini skirt and get discounts"

FFXI has a couple of systems related to this. There's a per-region fame system, where the number of quests you've completed affects how NPCs in that region respond to you. Some NPCs will also have a different reaction based on your job (so, if you're on Ninja, NPC Ninjas will have unique dialogue lines).

1d64: 16

"cities never become ghost cities"

In FFXI Al Zahbi gets besieged by three different mob factions. They can randomly kidnap merchants/villagers and capture generals too. They get locked up in their strongholds. I think if unattended to this can wipe out a vast majority of the npc population in that area of the game.

You could raid and murder whole villages in Wrath of the Lich King I think and ESO similarly had a pretty high rate of npc killing at one point. It caused a lot of player frustration issues though so I think they made their respawn rates really high for certain npcs.

Edit: Oh yeah and the recent destruction of stations by thargoids can allegedly depopulate entire star systems in ED

We're close to the point where things are either covered in prior posts, or my Dice Rolls don't land on ones that haven't been tackled before, and while it was definitely fun, for many people lunch-break or similar is over.

Which leaves just me (my 'job' basically consists of managing design, stocks, and this, so you get my glorious presence all the time!) looking through the last few.

there's no salaries of any kind. anywhere, in any game, no public service... there's only quest payouts and selling stuff

My Salary in Elite is low because I don't work hard enough to be accredited, but I do get a pittance probably to just keep my data in the system. I have top level Superpower reputation, but I don't actually do the work for the Superpower I'm aligned with in PowerPlay, and these two things are separate. So if I did more work, I'd have a higher salary. I wouldn't 'get paid for doing the work' (I'm pretty sure it's a loss to do the work) but I'd get paid every week.

If I got my contribution high enough I could just 'not play' for like a month and still get the same salary.