Throne and Liberty systems similar to AoC & Their twist on them

We have not received permission from akabear to share the quoted post.

Sure, I'll clarify, let me know if you still disagree. For now, only addressing the one thing since I won't be around as much today.

Let's ignore Metropolis nodes and maybe even Cities for a moment because if Ashes 'intends' for outer nodes to be 'boring' and 'peaceful' that's fine, still different, but I'd definitely be wrong then.

In TL, the idea is that at 8:00 PM every day or every other day, there's a contest in Region A, so everyone who wants to compete knows when to log on, knows where to go, knows what the stakes are, can coordinate, and it's probably unrelated to their 'home area'.

In Ashes, at 'some time', an event MIGHT spawn, in a Node that could be quite far from you but also have other 'native people' there, in a region you might not care about, with the 'act of moving to this contest' being unsafe due to lack of ability to travel safely through field zones'.

My understanding is that for Ashes, this SPECIFIC type of dynamism is intentional, whereas for TL it is explicitly not.

So for Ashes, especially if you don't get a lot of 'worldwide announcements of content' to tell you 'report to X node in the Jundark for a cool event that will start in 20m', you're not going to get the same results. People will 'stay around their nodes' or wander semirandomly. Statistically this would result in non-convergence. This will be compounded by the general feeling in Ashes that anyone you encounter on the road that you don't know WELL might just try to kill you, hoping that you have stuff.

This doubles up when those people have to be thinking 'are you running to the other side of the map right now because you are bored but also want to make a profit? Can I kill you, get the items you were hoping to sell at a profit and then profit with MUCH less work?'

Making the act if 'moving to a new event' a matter of gathering your group for travel sometimes.

This is the basis of my perception, please let me know which points you disagree with (as well as if you still disagree in general with the conclusion, but not the basis).

Analysis (super lazy today so I'm just gonna copy-paste from comms since no one will mind. Names have been changed to protect the innocent)

14:45 < GM> Response: YESSSS
14:47 < GM> Throwing weapons, 'summoner' implications, movement speed confirmations, stealth being magical
14:47 < GM> Group movement and synergies
14:47 < GM> everything
14:47 < TheOtherInnocent> well that was fancy
14:47 < TheOtherInnocent> indeed
14:47 < GM> this looks more like FFXI with every trailer
14:51 < GM> I can do deeper analytics if anyone needs them, but the blanket data is 'looking good, no notes'
14:52 < TheInnocent> Id like time stamps mostly
14:52 < TheOtherInnocent> my main takeaways were 'group magic stealth', 'true birb transform confirmed in case it wasnt', 'hey that golem summon looked like, player-scale'
14:52 < GM> hmk
14:52 < GM> I assume 'throwing weapon possible' doesn't require one, so
14:54 < GM> 0:30 gives a really good impression of movement speed and requirements, for a moment
14:54 < GM> 0:34 is definitely 'group magic stealth'
14:54 < GM> with a really nice windup and a big requirement, so it can't just happen randomly
14:55 < GM> 0:42 is complex because I'm NOW pretty sure that thing is a Player Golem/Summon
14:55 < GM> the 'one that looks like it has two huge metal doors as shields on its arms'
14:55 < GM> whereas the other purple one you saw back at 0:30 is an enemy type
14:56 < GM> you see it again at 0:50 fighting the 'DoorArm' one, so either both are summonable or at least one is
14:56 < GM> and we see most if not all of the player attacks in that case focused on the Purple one
14:56 < GM> SOMEONE is either in the form of, or controlling, 'DoorArm'
14:57 < GM> and that's it.
15:02 < TheInnocent> Siege golems are confirmed player controlled in one of the director interviews
15:02 < GM> yes, but the thing is, this doesn't appear to be a siege
15:02 < GM> that's what makes me think slightly differently
15:02 < TheInnocent> True!
15:03 < TheInnocent> You said summon?
15:03 < GM> which implies a BIT that you just get 'to either transform into or summon it for a fight with a big boss'
15:03 < GM> and based on what I know of their design, Summon would make SLIGHTLY more sense for this kind
15:03 < GM> not at ALL suggesting that it will happen, but this KIND would be more of a 'point it at a target and it fights'
15:04 < GM> whereas Siege Golems need to be 'properly controlled at all times, even movement'
15:05 < GM> And it isn't highly mobile, which is normally the 'limit' a Summon has in a high precision/skill game
15:05 < GM> no one is likely to have incorrect expectations of it.
15:07 < TheInnocent> I see

Laziness!

I like morphing as long as the base forms are easily accessible and the best ones are not p2w (100% will be though).

We have not received permission from JamesSunderland to share the quoted post.

Yeah I am now absolutely certain that this is either going to be the most complex 'Battle Pass' + 'Cosmetics to not look like a hobo' game ever, or straight P2W in all cases and forms.

They used to hint that it would be the first (and I've seen a LOT of weird cosmetic options) due to basically knowing that it will not properly resonate with the global audience if it is too raw on the P2W aspects, but that sort of talk has suspiciously vanished, with no discussions of outright Subscription to replace it.

On the other hand, they're pretty aware that if they want to compete with the Big Boss of MMOs at all right now, they are better off leaning on 'Battle Pass'/semi-optional Subscription, now that FFXIV has made that 'the norm' again on that end.

7:37 onward if you are familiar with the other recent videos.

Important stuff:
AoE damage absorb on Tanks.
Special augmentations on some stuff.
Elixine high healing is bought in the 'Event shop' (basically something you can snag in PvP scenarios) with a cooldown of 15s, heals 1125, so the implication, since health ranges up to about 8k, seems that they don't want high speed 'potion spam' at least in some of their PvP contests.

So far, everything lines up exactly with my expectations @NiKr , for combat design.

Making no comment on P2W stuff or expectations on that front.

Scope of some of this stuff is even better than I expected, but this isn't really the place to babble about that. Just keeping people up to date in case it inspires any actually useful feedback to Intrepid.

Azherae wrote: »

Scope of some of this stuff is even better than I expected, but this isn't really the place to babble about that. Just keeping people up to date in case it inspires any actually useful feedback to Intrepid.

Yeah, all those additional effects and/or boosts to the base ability seem nice. And I'm looking forward to TL's version of the tank's "forcefield". Will definitely be a nice test for the mechanic before Alpha2.

As for the hp pots. There's a chance that they'll have that instant version and a regen over time version for a smaller price or more easily available. At least that's what L2 had and there's been just too many similar things between the 2 games. Even the cd of 15s is kinda same, because that's the time of effect of L2's healing pots (though you could recast the pot within the last 5s of the effect).

Looking forward to more info on it and hope that I can try it out on EU servers.

Well, if this leak is true then those reqs are quite nice and I'll even be able to launch the game. And TL is supposedly still on UE4, so in theory UE5 should be optimized even better, so there's hope that my ancient 1080 will survive AoC too

NiKr wrote: »

Well, if this leak is true then those reqs are quite nice and I'll even be able to launch the game. And TL is supposedly still on UE4, so in theory UE5 should be optimized even better, so there's hope that my ancient 1080 will survive AoC too

That looks like what I'd expect, yeah. That said, my experience on this front is pretty small so I only mention it to clarify why this doesn't make me expect a delay nor consider the term 'Alpha' to be incorrect.

There's some other leaks floating around on Reddit that imply things will be basically an L2-BDO Hybrid, but with mostly the better aspects of both, and possibly one bit of staggeringly annoying P2W (or more accurately an RNG game mechanic that may or may not have a P2W aspect but only makes sense to implement if you intend to use it to get money from desperate players)

Also there are now four implications that the economy will be bad/sub BDO tier, but none of them guarantee it, and I don't think the Korean MMO market 'evolution' would ever fix two of them anyway. Surprised they added two more though, so I'm basically expecting to ditch this game (as a serious form of entertainment) too after a few months, but have it take up my 'BDO' slot for studying at least.

Hoping for the best, expecting the worst, unlike around here (for Ashes I hope for the best and expect mid-tier!)

Another alleged leak. I forget, did we know about the death penalty? I don't quite remember if I knew that
https://throneandliberty.online/alleged-alpha-tester-give-details-about-throne-and-liberty/

NiKr wrote: »

Another alleged leak. I forget, did we know about the death penalty? I don't quite remember if I knew that
https://throneandliberty.online/alleged-alpha-tester-give-details-about-throne-and-liberty/

We did not.

It's not that strange though, it's common in MMOs to have one for balancing the whole 'zombie zerg' attempts on bosses, right?

BDO had penalties before they made the game 'palatable to whales' and FFXI exp loss could delevel you outright (and make you unable to wear your level 75 gear if you deleveled to 74) so raids and similar content was stricter.

This really is still 'Lineage 3' under it all in terms of most functions, which is why I relied on you and James so much for clear data.

Hoping for no Soulshots personally though.

Azherae wrote: »

FFXI exp loss could delevel you outright (and make you unable to wear your level 75 gear if you deleveled to 74) so raids and similar content was stricter.

Ah, almost the same as it worked in L2. L2 let you wear the gear, but put a penalty on you. Oh how many times I've deleveled myself below my newly bought gear, that quite often I bought BY SELLING MY OLDER ONE And then I had to fight super easy mobs just to level back up to my gear.

Azherae wrote: »

This really is still 'Lineage 3' under it all in terms of most functions, which is why I relied on you and James so much for clear data.

Hoping for no Soulshots personally though.

Yeah, I don't think I've heard of any other mmo where you pretty much HAD to have a resource if you wanted to play the game in a normal way (obviously not counting arrows). While I appreciate the interconnectedness of the crafting system that SS provided, I do think that we were all just too used to that mechanic to objectively judge its true value.

Funny how you mentioned SSs and now Ryve made a video about them Btw, @Azherae do you not want SS for economic reasons or gameplay ones? Or maybe p2w potential?

NiKr wrote: »

Funny how you mentioned SSs and now Ryve made a video about them Btw, @Azherae do you not want SS for economic reasons or gameplay ones? Or maybe p2w potential?

I do not enjoy when games create unnecessary noob traps, nor when they balance content around a mandatory item, because it creates a duality.

If you have the item, the content is trivial, if you don't, it's very punishing OR 'have item = reasonable, without item borderline impossible'.

I think it's an unhealthy game design, but it's moreso that SoulShots, as they originally existed, are such an incredibly convoluted function taking up such a disparately large portion of the economic structure of L2 (this is based on that video you had me watch).

I just think that it can be done better, and I see why it wasn't in L2, but seeing them in a fresh game would imply that they are explicitly trying to hit the L2 nostalgia vibe or couldn't come up with the alternate better methods, or worse, both.

I'm no stranger to 'having an item that is required to do a lot of things in a game', FFXI Ninjas have to carry around one type of consumable 'tool' for every jutsu option (so about 13 inventory slots dedicated to just ninjutsu) but those are specific to the jutsu and you can do without them, you would just not choose to.

Everything I understand of SoulShots indicates that you could use less POWERFUL ones to save money, but using 'none' would limit you.

Anytime the game requires you to pull out the spreadsheet to figure out the optimal amount of money to spend in order to fight enjoyably, there's going to be a large subset of people who just end up being exploited by the sort of people I compete with.

I just don't like games where 'being a good economy player' basically comes down to 'figuring out how to take advantage of other people's ignorance en masse', and while SoulShots were not that because of the way they were introduced over time, it feels like it would be a bad idea to start with them.

Azherae wrote: »

Everything I understand of SoulShots indicates that you could use less POWERFUL ones to save money, but using 'none' would limit you.

Just as a small clarification, this was only true for magic shots, so fighter chars would either suffer w/o any or just spend money. It was a semi-quasi-notreally-balance against the mana consumption of mages, because as I said before magic classes could only do damage by using abilities so they'd always spend mana, while fighters could just auto-attack for good dmg. And mana regen consisted of sitting on your ass, so even though mages had higher dps per mob (especially if they had any kind of SS), the overall farming time would be somewhat similar (super aoe farm notwithstanding)

But yeah, I get your point. There's definitely much better systems out there, so starting out a game with this kind of stuff would just lead to even worse design decisions later on.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Everything I understand of SoulShots indicates that you could use less POWERFUL ones to save money, but using 'none' would limit you.

Just as a small clarification, this was only true for magic shots, so fighter chars would either suffer w/o any or just spend money. It was a semi-quasi-notreally-balance against the mana consumption of mages, because as I said before magic classes could only do damage by using abilities so they'd always spend mana, while fighters could just auto-attack for good dmg. And mana regen consisted of sitting on your ass, so even though mages had higher dps per mob (especially if they had any kind of SS), the overall farming time would be somewhat similar (super aoe farm notwithstanding)

But yeah, I get your point. There's definitely much better systems out there, so starting out a game with this kind of stuff would just lead to even worse design decisions later on.

Ashes theoretically has multiple superior models baked into the design right out of the gate, or so I assume because of my difficulty imagining a system that is NOT an improvement/hybrid of L2 and FFXI (based on what they said).

Basically, I truly believe that a hybridization of those two games, based on everything I've learned from you, is a perfect game, not just 'for me', but as an MMO in general. Obviously there's some bias, but in the end, if you take 'the best from everything' you should reasonably end up with 'the best', and FFXI doesn't so much 'do stuff that L2 does but worse', it's moreso that it has a lot of 'gaps' in its design due to not being PvP oriented, that L2 fills in automatically, whereas other games moreso 'compete'.

SImilarly, L2 has a lot of clear gaps that FF fills, so the two games' 'child' would be all-powerful.

The issue, ofc, is that this is all just my imagination of what could/should be, and doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of Ashes at all.

I don't think an L2-BDO hybrid can be as effective because they'd have sections where the two games' implementations will clash, fail to mesh together properly, and create potential for really broken things. I'm already expecting that from TL meta-combat, but to be fair I never delved into how much '6s CD AutoPotion spam' is in L2, I think you mentioned it at some point though.

Azherae wrote: »

Basically, I truly believe that a hybridization of those two games, based on everything I've learned from you, is a perfect game, not just 'for me', but as an MMO in general. Obviously there's some bias, but in the end, if you take 'the best from everything' you should reasonably end up with 'the best', and FFXI doesn't so much 'do stuff that L2 does but worse', it's moreso that it has a lot of 'gaps' in its design due to not being PvP oriented, that L2 fills in automatically, whereas other games moreso 'compete'.

Add EQ2's pace of content release and we'll have a more than perfect mmo

Azherae wrote: »

I'm already expecting that from TL meta-combat, but to be fair I never delved into how much '6s CD AutoPotion spam' is in L2, I think you mentioned it at some point though.

L2 mainly relied on 10s cd 15s effect hp regen pots, with 6min cd big hp and mp pots, super rare no cd direct heal hp pots and a whole separate "health" bar with no cd low/mid pots for it.

If I saw correctly in the TL videos, it does seem to just have direct healing pots. Maybe that was just the ones they had in their testing or maybe these ones fit their combat design better, I dunno.

L2 added the second hp bar with its pots to prolong ttk by quite a lot, so TL might be going for the middle point, because they only had one bar. I personally liked the ttk with two hp bars, so I'd assume I'll like TL's combat if they do in fact have direct healing pots on a shorter cd.

Though again, I'm mainly looking at it from a pvp perspective. I'd assume that this kind of healing design brings a ton of potential design issues to the pve part of the game. Oh, I forgot to mention that the second "hp" bar only applied in pvp, so for pve you still only had 1s tickrate hp regen pots which would help if you were kiting mobs or just running away, but would not keep you invincible against mobs of your lvl.

We have not received permission from Percimes to share the quoted post.

Did NCsoft sell them even all the way back then? I don't think I've heard of them selling SS in the earlier chronicles. Or are you talking about rmt?

We have not received permission from Percimes to share the quoted post.

Damn, guess that info just never got to my info circles. Yeah, that's real shitty if they sold SS right from the start. That kinda destroys the whole point of the crafting system (well, not the whole, but stil).

Then I definitely hope they don't appear in TL.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Basically, I truly believe that a hybridization of those two games, based on everything I've learned from you, is a perfect game, not just 'for me', but as an MMO in general. Obviously there's some bias, but in the end, if you take 'the best from everything' you should reasonably end up with 'the best', and FFXI doesn't so much 'do stuff that L2 does but worse', it's moreso that it has a lot of 'gaps' in its design due to not being PvP oriented, that L2 fills in automatically, whereas other games moreso 'compete'.

Add EQ2's pace of content release and we'll have a more than perfect mmo

Azherae wrote: »

I'm already expecting that from TL meta-combat, but to be fair I never delved into how much '6s CD AutoPotion spam' is in L2, I think you mentioned it at some point though.

L2 mainly relied on 10s cd 15s effect hp regen pots, with 6min cd big hp and mp pots, super rare no cd direct heal hp pots and a whole separate "health" bar with no cd low/mid pots for it.

If I saw correctly in the TL videos, it does seem to just have direct healing pots. Maybe that was just the ones they had in their testing or maybe these ones fit their combat design better, I dunno.

L2 added the second hp bar with its pots to prolong ttk by quite a lot, so TL might be going for the middle point, because they only had one bar. I personally liked the ttk with two hp bars, so I'd assume I'll like TL's combat if they do in fact have direct healing pots on a shorter cd.

Though again, I'm mainly looking at it from a pvp perspective. I'd assume that this kind of healing design brings a ton of potential design issues to the pve part of the game. Oh, I forgot to mention that the second "hp" bar only applied in pvp, so for pve you still only had 1s tickrate hp regen pots which would help if you were kiting mobs or just running away, but would not keep you invincible against mobs of your lvl.

Anywhere I say FFXI I think you can mostly substitute EQ2, though I'm not entirely sure, since I think FF is more 'focused' in terms of how moment-to-moment combat goes and the economy might have been a little better around the middle of development.

In terms of content release timings I think they were similar, but the fact is that there's no way to know because they both released 'more content than a person could seriously remember all of'.

As for the healing balance and TTK, I'm going to remain skeptical mostly because I don't think Korean MMOs have the same goals at all usually in terms of player engagement, but I'm hopeful because I just naively assume that they really can't be expecting to have sub-MOBA level combat in 2023 in a fantasy game and expect people to take it seriously in a game where you basically have no real consequence.

That's the underlying structural problem with MMOs on both 'ends' right now. Those that appeal to the 'I want to relax and RP and craft ONLY' crowd have combat that puts the 'I want to functionally fight a high stakes tactical battle every 10 minutes' crowd to sleep and vice versa. Only BDO and Albion seem to get into the middle properly and both of those are missing the spark of 'lasting consequence on the world/character technical progression' that keeps people playing more than 4 months.

But I'd have to detail another huge BDO flaw for you to understand what I'm getting at. Basically they added a 'fairy' that follows you around and autoheals you with the potions in your inventory at some point... but you have to do stuff to even get it, and the strength of Fairy you get is RNG, as is the result of trying to level up a weaker one to be stronger, and the abilities they get, and you can only have one I think so if you had a mismatch you have to 'rebirth' it which then is most efficiently done byyyyy...

Good ol' P2W.