Combat is moving in the wrong direction

Funny how Noaani addressed Mag's next comment before that comment even appeared. Just goes to show that we've been in a circle since the very start.

Lineage 2 had a ton of vids even before youtube became popular, but majority of those vids have disappeared and a ton of other vids got blocked to all fuck by YT's copyright dumbness, because they all used "super cool and not at all edgy" music. Pretty much any "proper" gameplay that I'd want to show doesn't exist, just as is the case with Noaani's points.

BDO just came out late enough to have all kinds of content and got pretty much completely documented since the very start. Like, hell, I can't even look up forum posts for super old L2 moments. I can only look up an archived version of the site (which is super limited) and even that is only the case thanks to some people who loved the game.

In other words, it's real disingenuous to ask for visual proof and only trust it, when it's known that there is none, and any content that exists simply doesn't represent the points well enough.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

It's really hard to have these conversations with you without just insulting you because you're so stubborn about this specific type of thing while not getting it. If I didn't have the connections I have and know you, I could almost be convinced that you're Noaani's alt whose whole purpose is to give Noaani someone to talk rings around on forums.

But, this is a Combat Discussion thread now. So, I'm gonna be 'helpful'.

You say the FFXI video didn't seem that fast, right? I bet you that Noaani can see why it's fast, so you can just use that if you want. An experienced player like Noaani probably doesn't need to have played any FFXI, I just need to mention five things:

1. If that player allows Maat to add and keep up a specific buff 'Aquaveil', using melee hits to stop Maat from casting becomes much harder.
2. If that player does not time their Stoneskin cast correctly, they will probably be interrupted and probably take huge damage.
3. If that player is not fast enough to stop Maat's Dispel from hitting one of their stronger buffs, by ensuring they always either have lots of them, or using Blink, then they will lose just by not being buffed enough.
4. If they try to use Blink and Maat uses Diaga, it will cancel the Blink (Maat usually uses this to ensure large attack spells won't miss)
5. Their only reliable method to Stun Maat in this fight is by keeping their Weapon Skill ready and doing it on reaction to 'any large spell that is cast while their Stoneskin is down'

So, they're 'watching for gaps to add attack buffs', 'being ready to put up split second defense buffs', 'looking for moments to put up other buffs to prevent the loss condition', 'perfectly timing their Stoneskin between Maat's attacks', 'making sure to dispel Maat whenever they can', 'attempting to optimize the time spent hitting with melee to get their Stun option', 'deciding whether or not to use their Weapon Skill for damage due to being in a positive defensive situation where they won't need to Stun', 'keeping their MP up', and 'adapting to having Defense Down and later blind'.

These are done all at once. Is this more than BDO? Only a little. Is it more than BDO if you slowed down BDO? Definitely.

There, now Noaani could explain to you, probably without ever playing this game, why it is equivalent or faster. Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.

Azherae wrote: »

Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.

I'm still waiting for my personal disregardment of my video by Mag I'm betting on "the clicking doesn't mean anything, the combat doesn't seem all that fast".

NiKr wrote: »

Funny how Noaani addressed Mag's next comment before that comment even appeared. Just goes to show that we've been in a circle since the very start.

Lineage 2 had a ton of vids even before youtube became popular, but majority of those vids have disappeared and a ton of other vids got blocked to all fuck by YT's copyright dumbness, because they all used "super cool and not at all edgy" music. Pretty much any "proper" gameplay that I'd want to show doesn't exist, just as is the case with Noaani's points.

BDO just came out late enough to have all kinds of content and got pretty much completely documented since the very start. Like, hell, I can't even look up forum posts for super old L2 moments. I can only look up an archived version of the site (which is super limited) and even that is only the case thanks to some people who loved the game.

In other words, it's real disingenuous to ask for visual proof and only trust it, when it's known that there is none, and any content that exists simply doesn't represent the points well enough.

For reference of anyone who just watched the FFXI video on the forum without going to check all its data, it isn't even 'new', that video is 14 years old.

By that time the game had already been out for 4 years though.

That fight isn't even optional or top end, it's mandatory .

It's what you have to be able to do for the game to let you reach the level cap . It's literally everyman content.

I would happily provide as many videos of FFXI content as is required to get a proper discussion out of this, if I had any reason to believe it would help.

Give me a reason to believe it would help, Mag, not just your usual 'claim that you would listen if it was provided'. I'm providing it. Listen.

EDIT: To replace an error-post situation, might as well use the space.

EDIT: Same as above.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

No one is saying that.

So is that your only argument?

"I press more buttons and move more often." is the definition of an Action Combat game. Who would even try to argue otherwise?

BDO's combat is shallow and simplistic, not 'static', not 'lax', and not 'light on inputs'. People who don't like it don't like it because it's shallow and simplistic.

Maybe if we get you to move the goalposts enough you'll get out of the stadium.

We have not received permission from Solvryn to share the quoted post.

So back to Intrepid I guess, in case they somehow do not know this already.

BDO is only capable of surpassing FFXI in terms of inputs, literally just the 'hitting buttons on reaction' part, because it has animation canceling.

Ashes is claimed to not have Animation Canceling. If you create a game with no Animation Cancels and try to get to even FFXI speed in your current build type, you will make the game unplayable for a large number of people, because mid level players guess, and then they meet higher level players where guessing does them no good and they get frustrated right out of the game.

I suggest not getting to that speed level, and I also suggest not adding too many scenarios where players have the option to feel like it is 'their turn' and therefore they 'should be able to succeed at what they are trying to do in time'.

This leads to Frame Data learning in PvP scenarios and most players are not good at that. You would end up reducing your bosses to BDO tier to avoid players feeling like they 'hate the game because it should let them take an action when they want to'.

Or you will let them take those actions 'when they want to' and end up with people utterly shredding both the mid-tier players and your 'top Content', sometimes at the same time. This is not consistently enjoyable for either side in my experience, but it's hard to say with certainty because of the way most similar games are designed.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

You might've missed it cause you didn't address this one. Is this fast enough for you or is it still too slow?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH6Qts0sk8g

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

Alright, well, I guess we'll leave it at that, since it really comes down to faith at that point.

I gave my data, and you say that it's insane and that you basically can't believe it.

I've played both games, and you haven't, and you seem to have no basis for your disbelief, you just maintain it, so I guess that's it. You can probably keep going in circles with Noaani instead, at least now there's videos, for whatever good that does.

As for Intrepid feedback, be careful, as you can see, there will in fact be some players who think 'but there isn't enough moving around so it isn't as fast'. You're going to have to do the same thing BDO does at least in that sense, just please do it carefully. In my experience 'tricking' this player type is required, but your current path is suspect due to the 'no Animation Cancels' part.

Just be careful with the frame data, you've already chosen Split Body and relatively high speed.

We have not received permission from Mag7spy to share the quoted post.

I explained a bit how the fight was going down in the original post of that video. Both sides had to move in a way that would keep their backs from the enemy. And I explained that overclicking the targets would be bad too, so they had to control their actions correctly.

And I also said that this was an older version of the game, with the newer having even more tools to feint and outthink your opponents. And the speed was even higher too. This was just the only fitting video I could find within reasonable time.

So as Noaani has been saying over and over, you can't just see a video and know all the actions and thought processes the player is making. So if you say that attacks are even faster than BDO in this video, the later versions of L2 must be waaay faster than BDO with even deeper decision trees. Obviously there's a range in how deep some classes go, but Azherae said that this is true for BDO as well, so there's that.

But my main point is that it's possible for a tab game to be, at the very least, as fast as BDO. And imo targeting with a mouse that you also use for moving requires waay more visual precision than just few degree turns in BDO, but I haven't played enough BDO to say that with full confidence and no one in this current discussion has played enough L2 (and BDO) to say that I'm super wrong either. This is why we keep telling you that you just gotta trust us a bit.