Aggro/Threat mechanics don't work in PvX

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Sure. Just don't care. Why do you ask?

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Nope. Again, I'm one of those people. I form my opinions and then refuse to let other people try to change them by beating me up in a video game.

I learned my lesson long ago! Did you know that sometimes, even if someone says that they will show you a thing, and you utterly body them 12-0, they still don't concede the point and talk about other random stuff?

The nerve of some people.

I'm talking about Fighting Games in this case btw, of course, I know that I would never be able to do that to a true PC gamer.

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You say that, but can one even really 'see' anything in BDO PvP?

I'm assuming of course that you're referring to my decision making and not to my actual physical execution ability, but I play Succession Kuno so it's not like that matters either.

If you'd like a play demo I had it in some thread somewhere back but that was a PvE fight against Dim Tree (Rift Boss version no less) so it's probably not worth it anyway, after all, PvE skill doesn't tell you anything about what a person can do in PvP, particularly not in BDO.

Oh, I also play Shai pretty seriously, since I enjoy being a Healer and Support with mobility and stuff, but as I think everyone here knows, 'Shai is basically a meme'.

After all, they basically had to nerf Shai PvP damage to be half that of everyone else, given everything else about its stats and playstyle.

So yes, I am "Console Only Shai" level of player.

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I'm really surprised that I've managed to do so well at not being clear how serious I am about these things. I guess I'm blending in pretty well with all the other people who talk about what they do or what they can do but possibly don't actually have the skills they claim?

Anyways I feel like that would be a kinda weird experience since I've watched literally hours of your match footage and I have a savant skill for analysing weaknesses/holes in someone's fighting style, not to mention that I can discuss it with people who actually were involved in a few of the matches.

If I lost it'd be because I don't play Soul Calibur, if I won it'd be because I already know the exact timing for whiff punishing both of your primary feints. The only thing you'd learn about me is what you know already. I'm incredibly analytical but also have no patience and get frustrated easily by those who aim to win by not engaging.

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I watched it back then because I hoped to find some specific point where I could discuss with you 'why Frame Data matters' since you don't really think it does. So yeah, that has nothing to do with it.

I'm actually really surprised that Siegfried's command list didn't carry over from SC5 to SC6 well enough for you to just know how to play him automatically, but honestly I'm having the same problem in SF6 now. Chun's stuff is all different and weird and harder for no reason half the time.

Capcom Plz.

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idk, SF6 is moreso work for me since I gotta develop all my team's resources and prepare stream content and so on, and all the 'congrats we've made your main character even harder now and explicitly made your muscle memory not carry over' is kinda rough.

I'm glad you got some games with Enders, though, he's pretty fun, and kinda parallels you, right? Since he only really got into fighting games seriously with SC6. He's worked really hard.

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Indeed I am. I even played Ashes Alpha-1 with a Dualshock Controller.

Console when?

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Which reminds me to clarify @NiKr that one of the things that really helps with making this work 'the same as PvE' and seems to make most of my 'focus group' happy is:

Threat is still measured for players the same way as for mobs, and the empowerment scales by how much threat the Paladin has on the target (with the Mark itself being as powerful as what you'd expect a Taunt's enmity spike to be).

So if the Paladin just 'randomly Marks a target' in order to get, say, Cooldown Reduction (the general best choice for a game like Ashes as example) when they know that target will be taking a lot of actions or avoiding them, and then try to use that CDR on someone else instead, the CDR scales poorly and they don't get much out of it (assume they get one 'tick' of benefit from the Mark every few seconds the target goes without hitting them, but it's not much until they have high Enmity on that target).

So they end up playing the same way as in PvE. They want max hate built on their Marked target so that they get the max benefit whenever that target isn't attacking them. The Target in turn wants to hit them to 'reduce it' to lessen the CDR benefit.

Combine with a Tank Archetype that has only a reasonable amount of damage skills, and is instead benefitting from CDR damage reduction. If they mark you, every time you attack the person they want to protect, they hit you more or defend that person more (possibly even from teammates).

As you can see, it is perfect.

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It's always good to get matches with the top players. It's a privilege I'm very thankful for.

But since my focus is usually on helping casual players to understand how to play more effectively, I usually can't gain from it if I aim to actually keep up with them myself. I leave that to other team members and just try to keep up with them.

As long as the top are willing to play you at all, you're still in a good spot, so I hope you get more games with Enders, Link, etc.

Azherae wrote: »

As you can see, it is perfect.

This kinda sounds like the AP mechanic from ff11 (if I understand both correctly), which would definitely explain why your group likes it and why it's similar to pve, because ff11's pve is pvp-similar.

If the base strength of the Mark's effect (and scaling with each tick) is somewhat weak, then it seems like a game of cat and mouse between the Marked and the tank would be the best course of action for the victim. That would definitely alleviate the outgoing dps (unless that Marked player is a ranger with a shortbow), but would still be more of a tank avoidance than direct interaction.

The overall system would obviously highly depend on tank timings and CDs on important abilities (in the context of CDR application of the Mark), but imo this would still be somewhat low on the annoyance scale to really concentrate on the tank.

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I don't quite understand the last sentence. Especially in the context of my L2 experience where you'd only really have one build for your character (outside of maybe elemental resistances) which worked in pvx rather then in separate situations.

And Steven has already said that there wouldn't be a separation between pve and pvp gear. Obviously people will still try to create their own separate builds, but I'd assume that Intrepid will aim at either making pve similar to pvp in mechanics/features or the other way around, which would in turn allow people to just have one build with just a few small changes to fit the current encounter. And that's one of the reasons why I'm pushing for a pvx tank this much.

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I mean, top in terms of OEd to all hell? Cause outside of later updates that added some dps capabilities to tanks, I would only really do good-to-big damage against someone weaker-geared. If I was fighting someone in equal tier gear - it would either be a fight until they run out of mana (if they don't run/tp away) in 1v1 and general avoidance in party pvp, outside of the very taunt I'm trying to push here

And I started playing L2 tanks because of a video of a tank in great gear pwning people in weaker gear during the times where "proper" party setups weren't as well-established as they became later on. And btw, I played the DE tank, which was usually considered the highest dps tank class (or at least on the same lvl as DA with his panther).

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Guess we can only agree to disagree on that point then. Cause I want the tank to be its own thing that works pretty much the same way and has the same goal across the pvx experience. That means either making pve super similar to pvp, mechanically, or giving the tank abilities that work very similarly in both.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

As you can see, it is perfect.

This kinda sounds like the AP mechanic from ff11 (if I understand both correctly), which would definitely explain why your group likes it and why it's similar to pve, because ff11's pve is pvp-similar.

If the base strength of the Mark's effect (and scaling with each tick) is somewhat weak, then it seems like a game of cat and mouse between the Marked and the tank would be the best course of action for the victim. That would definitely alleviate the outgoing dps (unless that Marked player is a ranger with a shortbow), but would still be more of a tank avoidance than direct interaction.

The overall system would obviously highly depend on tank timings and CDs on important abilities (in the context of CDR application of the Mark), but imo this would still be somewhat low on the annoyance scale to really concentrate on the tank.

I'm actually not sure what you mean here by AP mechanic, did you mean TP?

If I've ever mentioned 'AP' it was probably in relation to my own design space, not FFXI.

Also you can code things such that 'moving away from the Tank' also builds Mark empowerment bonus, just not Enmity.

Y'know, if you were the type to ask your engineering team to do that in order to make the gameplay experience more enjoyable for players with certain preferences.

And of course you have clearly overlooked the fact that all the other abilities would be balanced to be a Fun Experience and definitely still effective and not overpowered because that's what Developers do. Don't you have faith?

I'm sure between them they have thousands of hours of class design over at Intrepid and it's probably nothing like 90% of projects where there's basically only two overworked battle/balance Designers who spend 6 hours a day looking at a spreadsheet.

You'd trust me to it, right? You should trust them tenfold. So the mechanic is still perfect, they just have to do everything else correctly and make a good fun engaging balanced kit that will make Tanks useful in PvP and they're done.