DPS Meter Megathread

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Most interesting person so far.

So you tend to minmax, you HAVE used them, you're happy they 'won't be in Ashes'.

Some people already have one for Ashes. You're like me then, in that you don't wanna bother using it, so the fact that the game won't let anyone ask you whether you actually did all the grinding or not, is good?

Also do you like Armored Core?

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This is the exact content distillation I was talking about. Devs either have to increase their workload to make enough content for the entire spectrum of players or they have to forget about one of the extremes.

Also, I guess it's cause I'm not a competitive pver, but wouldn't "encounters that require trackers because devs made them with trackers" mean that there's only one way to beat the encounter, which means there's only one "raid build", which then comes back to the toxicity of "you either adhere to this build or you can't raid with us on this"?

You say that AA guilds kicked people for not having the proper class, but wouldn't trackers just support this, and the only reason why you'd be ok with that is because tracker is objectively correct so it's fine to filter people through it instead of for subjective reasons?

Also, if it isn't just one build then couldn't a non-tracker guild just beat the boss sooner or later through trial and error?

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L2 also treated its players well and people would only get kicked if there was some huge drama or if they wanted to switch guilds.

And the self-imposed limitations of "we should bring as few people to this encounter as possible to maximize the reward" created the higher difficulty for the guilds who wanted it, so most encounters were really difficult for the hardcore guilds.

@JamesSunderland @Depraved were either of you in any top guilds on the official servers? Did they use any types of 3rd party tools to understand encounters better? Cause I've never heard of those, outside the basic bot cause everyone and their mother wanted to bot the game.

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

This is the exact content distillation I was talking about. Devs either have to increase their workload to make enough content for the entire spectrum of players or they have to forget about one of the extremes.

Also, I guess it's cause I'm not a competitive pver, but wouldn't "encounters that require trackers because devs made them with trackers" mean that there's only one way to beat the encounter, which means there's only one "raid build", which then comes back to the toxicity of "you either adhere to this build or you can't raid with us on this"?

You say that AA guilds kicked people for not having the proper class, but wouldn't trackers just support this, and the only reason why you'd be ok with that is because tracker is objectively correct so it's fine to filter people through it instead of for subjective reasons?

Also, if it isn't just one build then couldn't a non-tracker guild just beat the boss sooner or later through trial and error?

Aww come on don't loop back here...

No, it does not mean that.

No, trackers don't support that.

And no, non-tracker guilds NORMALLY do not defeat the boss through trial and error unless its WoW just-above-mid-tier.

Seriously, this time at least, just trust the UltraGymLords on this part, because if we wanna reach 200 pages, dis is not da wae.

Technically I guess I should use the previous discussion.

What happens is that the person using the Tracker or the person who 'might as well be a Tracker' just gathers up all the Dumbass Casuals and tells them what to do. You get two types. The type you are, who ends up building their own whole entire guild and then eventually gets frustrated and relies on external information long after the boss has been beaten by someone else repeatedly (but they're still not doing it by trial and error) .
And the second type, who knows that they don't want to care but decide to just rely on the Tracker/Tracker user for instructions, and then that's it. And of course, as you can guess, if your guild is full of a certain type of Tracker-averse person and you don't want to start drama, you just tell them how to improve without telling them that you parsed them.

The sort of person who gets told 'Use this FCS because the Ricochet mechanic is stopping you from winning' and goes 'oh hey thanks' and never thinks about the amount of work it would have taken to know that was the problem , can go through hundreds of hours of a game without knowing who is parsing what.

Azherae wrote: »

Seriously, this time at least, just trust the UltraGymLords on this part, because if we wanna reach 200 pages, dis is not da wae.

I still haven't gone back to AC so I got nothing else to talk about

I'm either too dumb or just so damn entrenched in my bias that I simply cannot understand tracker use. Even though I seemingly understand what they do and how they work and how people are supposedly using them, but when I say "trackers make the game ultimately easier and progression faster and if they can figure out the objectively best build that means that people can objectively tell you to use that and disregard anything else" - yet I'm told I'm wrong in that assumption.

I like to understand things, which is why I keep going in circles on the same damn topics again and again, but my inability to understand this frustrates me to no end. And I guess there's no way to simply do smth that would make me understand.

Well, nothing except for spending like a year in EQ2, grinding the game and its knowledge and relationships with people until I manage to get to the top and try the bosses that Noaani refuses to tell us about (if there are any of that type even left in the game at this point). Or at least I'd hit the wall that makes me understand why trackers are so valued.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Seriously, this time at least, just trust the UltraGymLords on this part, because if we wanna reach 200 pages, dis is not da wae.

I still haven't gone back to AC so I got nothing else to talk about

I'm either too dumb or just so damn entrenched in my bias that I simply cannot understand tracker use. Even though I seemingly understand what they do and how they work and how people are supposedly using them, but when I say "trackers make the game ultimately easier and progression faster and if they can figure out the objectively best build that means that people can objectively tell you to use that and disregard anything else" - yet I'm told I'm wrong in that assumption.

I like to understand things, which is why I keep going in circles on the same damn topics again and again, but my inability to understand this frustrates me to no end. And I guess there's no way to simply do smth that would make me understand.

Well, nothing except for spending like a year in EQ2, grinding the game and its knowledge and relationships with people until I manage to get to the top and try the bosses that Noaani refuses to tell us about (if there are any of that type even left in the game at this point). Or at least I'd hit the wall that makes me understand why trackers are so valued.

I think I can actually give an answer, but normally this type of answer gets held back because of how it comes off, and this ain't the best community for giving it, but here you go.

The sort of person who builds the Tracker doesn't often need to build it for themselves. It benefits them, don't get me wrong, they can definitely use it and it is obviously more accurate than 'eyeballing'.

But they build it because they want to shorten or automate something they were already doing, to the point where they can get other people to do it. Why? Because helping each person would take too long. If you tell me 'no trackers' I literally don't have the time to work out what is wrong with some friend's build relative to a target.

Close friends? Sure, I can manage, or have the investment. Acquaintances? Nah.

So what happens? If you say 'no trackers and can enforce it' all the people who enjoy progression end up gravitating together. They want to progress and enjoy the content, every person who has a problem is just slowing them down even if they really want to help . So then not only does nothing get cleared any slower, you basically made your game more elitist.

It's so elitist that no one is even 'bothering' to 'kick a stubborn Dumbass Casual out of their guild'. They never even got to join the guild with the people who tend to do the analytics. Then next stage (in this era) is 'well there's no competition and we already did everything first so we're bored so let's take all that data and make some guides or something for clout'.

See where this goes?

Azherae wrote: »

See where this goes?

I think I might've understood my problem. I'm a naïve elitist idealist boomer who lives in the past that's built on a "cog in the machine" culture.

Because to me, all of this

Azherae wrote: »

So what happens? If you say 'no trackers and can enforce it' all the people who enjoy progression end up gravitating together. They want to progress and enjoy the content, every person who has a problem is just slowing them down even if they really want to help . So then not only does nothing get cleared any slower, you basically made your game more elitist.

It's so elitist that no one is even 'bothering' to 'kick a stubborn Dumbass Casual out of their guild'. They never even got to join the guild with the people who tend to do the analytics. Then next stage (in this era) is 'well there's no competition and we already did everything first so we're bored so let's take all that data and make some guides or something for clout'.

is completely fine and "how it should be". The overall progression of the game is slow (because it takes longer to figure out things w/o trackers). There's super elites who put all of that time into progressing and removed any weak links in their ranks. There's everyone else who don't get the content or get it after that last part of the quote.

And by the time those elitists get to make those guides, the devs should release a big update that's gonna entertain them for the same long amount of time.

To me, this kind of setup is what makes sense. I'm completely positive that this setup would never happen, because not only can one not truly enforce the "no trackers" rule, but the overall gaming culture is just way too different. People just can't exist in a slow-paced environment. And the ones who can are playing on classic servers or their private alternatives.

In other words, I really need to go play AC so that we have something else to discuss but for now I'll just go to bed.

Oh, I should probably clarify that I don't actually care about that still, since I know that you're definitely the type that would prefer a game where the top players just don't even help semi-average players, if this somehow slowed down the content grind.

I'm moreso explaining why I claim that the non-analytic player guilds don't often actually clear the thing. With trackers, the game is designed such that someone is using them. Without them, the game is generally such that the PvE is easy, or the analytic people who can do it without the trackers all pile together and then the non-analytic players catch up once those people feel like making some guides because they don't care anymore.

The analytic types clear the content only slightly slower by just combining their abilities and time on each other instead of spreading out and making the game more interesting.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

See where this goes?

I think I might've understood my problem. I'm a naïve elitist idealist boomer who lives in the past that's built on a "cog in the machine" culture.

Because to me, all of this

Azherae wrote: »

So what happens? If you say 'no trackers and can enforce it' all the people who enjoy progression end up gravitating together. They want to progress and enjoy the content, every person who has a problem is just slowing them down even if they really want to help . So then not only does nothing get cleared any slower, you basically made your game more elitist.

It's so elitist that no one is even 'bothering' to 'kick a stubborn Dumbass Casual out of their guild'. They never even got to join the guild with the people who tend to do the analytics. Then next stage (in this era) is 'well there's no competition and we already did everything first so we're bored so let's take all that data and make some guides or something for clout'.

is completely fine and "how it should be". The overall progression of the game is slow (because it takes longer to figure out things w/o trackers). There's super elites who put all of that time into progressing and removed any weak links in the ranks. There's everyone else who don't get the content or get it after that last part of the quote.

And by the time those elitists get to make those guides, the devs should release a big update that's gonna entertain them for the same long amount of time.

To me, this kind of setup is what makes sense. I'm completely positive that this setup would never happen, because not only can one not truly enforce the "no trackers" rule, but the overall gaming culture is just way too different. People just can't exist in a slow-paced environment. And the ones who can are playing on classic servers or their private alternatives.

In other words, I really need to go play AC so that we have something else to discuss but for now I'll just go to bed.

Model worked, see above post.

So nah, you're right. It's just the same sort of reaction I have to Steven's mindset about it. I figure in that, you two are the same, even if it's not for the same reason.

When it comes down to it, you kinda don't care about 'everyone getting a chance', and we already knew that. But the point I was making is that in my world, the Content is cleared in X weeks by 7 guilds, and in yours, it's cleared in X weeks by 1-2, and then that number barely rises if at all for a while.

Which is, interestingly, exactly how it worked out even in WoW for the hardest encounters. That, you can find data on.

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Wasn't that what you wanted here, George?

To get us another 10 pages?

We can do it! Armored Core 6 will get us there. Nothing like Hybrid Combat to move things forward.

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That is an entirely unsurprising opinion. I hope you're joking about it, but so it goes.

Wait, do you mean the series or the latest one?

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That's the spirit!

Hopefully the modders will get things up soon so we can fight Malenia/Morgott in our ACs.