Supporting PvE Raiders in Ashes

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Could you expand on why you think it would? Iirc FF11 had player-like abilities on mobs (don't remember if we've discussed this for EQ2), so wouldn't the same design in Ashes remove the issue of "gear gotta be tuned to different content differently"?

And at that point it'd just be about making good abilities overall and combining them in pve in a logical but complex way.

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I've been skipping majority of discussions lately, but where was this? Cause, INTREPID YOU BETTER LISTEN, we definitely need mana management in pvp. From both sides of the fight too.

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

Could you expand on why you think it would? Iirc FF11 had player-like abilities on mobs (don't remember if we've discussed this for EQ2), so wouldn't the same design in Ashes remove the issue of "gear gotta be tuned to different content differently"?

And at that point it'd just be about making good abilities overall and combining them in pve in a logical but complex way.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

I've been skipping majority of discussions lately, but where was this? Cause, INTREPID YOU BETTER LISTEN, we definitely need mana management in pvp. From both sides of the fight too.

Nah, overall, Noaani is right, generally you will have different goals for the situations, so the only way a 'good PvP' item would be similar to a 'good PvE' item would be if the PvE was a very different type than what you find in most MMOs.

This is a thing that basically only TL and FFXI can do consistently because of their pacing. It wouldn't fit for Ashes unless it was trying to be more like those games, which seems unlikely given everything we know.

But hey, in two weeks we'll be able to say with at least a bit more certainty. Frame data and all.

Azherae wrote: »

so the only way a 'good PvP' item would be similar to a 'good PvE' item would be if the PvE was a very different type than what you find in most MMOs.

Once again I fall prey to my yearning for a game that cannot be

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

so the only way a 'good PvP' item would be similar to a 'good PvE' item would be if the PvE was a very different type than what you find in most MMOs.

Once again I fall prey to my earning for a game that cannot be

You can join me on the Copium train that someday someone will make it (or TL will get expanded properly somehow, as I've said, it's quite close).

Also there's no specific reason Ashes cannot do it, it's just that there's very little incentive to do it, especially now. I guess we can just hope that Steven is far more like you than has even been shown so far (or really likes the design ethos of MOBAs enough to know which parts to grab).

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And to me that is simply not pvx, because changing my entire damn build just to fit the situation is the same thing as completely separating the content. I can completely understand that with instanced pve + arena pvp, but not in a game like Ashes (which is why Steven is just like me frfr ).

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

I assume you're talking about purely instanced pve here and open field pvp. Cause my experience is literally the opposite Don't remember a single time where people could just regen their mana in pvp (obviously, unless the enemy was dumb as bricks) and don't remember a single pve fight (instanced included) where mana couldn't be regened in the corner of the room while the boss is aggroed in the other corner.

Did instances in AA always cover the entire room in aoes/hazards throughout the entire fight? Cause obviously EQ2 must have, but AA seems like a way weaker pve game, so I'm curious if it did.

NiKr wrote: »

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

And to me that is simply not pvx, because changing my entire damn build just to fit the situation is the same thing as completely separating the content. I can completely understand that with instanced pve + arena pvp, but not in a game like Ashes (which is why Steven is just like me frfr ).

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

I assume you're talking about purely instanced pve here and open field pvp. Cause my experience is literally the opposite Don't remember a single time where people could just regen their mana in pvp (obviously, unless the enemy was dumb as bricks) and don't remember a single pve fight (instanced included) where mana couldn't be regened in the corner of the room while the boss is aggroed in the other corner.

Did instances in AA always cover the entire room in aoes/hazards throughout the entire fight? Cause obviously EQ2 must have, but AA seems like a way weaker pve game, so I'm curious if it did.

And this is the design/pacing difference in question, and why L2 'can only be merged' with FFXI and like... Neverwinter sort of.

You can regen your MP, positionally, quite easily in FFXI and TL. What you can't do is 'find the time to do that' because everyone's input is required often, this is even somewhat true of Mages.

And similarly, in FFXI PvP, it's easy to prevent you from doing this by having someone throw a bunch of long duration DoT on the people you don't want doing this, since even if they then use Stoneskin to allow themselves to rest for MP, you can see that they're doing that and react accordingly.

The different games all went in vastly different directions from their EQ1 baseline. Which is why we have to hope that Steven or the design team clear this up for us at some point.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

I feel like you're talking about changing a few gear pieces for each situation, while I'm talking about a whole revamp of your character - class, augments, tattoos, full gear change.

To me, changing a gear piece or two is not a respec. And if you did mean the kind of changes I mentioned - I don't think we can do that on the go in Ashes.

We have not received permission from Noaani to share the quoted post.

Azherae wrote: »

And this is the design/pacing difference in question, and why L2 'can only be merged' with FFXI and like... Neverwinter sort of.

You can regen your MP, positionally, quite easily in FFXI and TL. What you can't do is 'find the time to do that' because everyone's input is required often, this is even somewhat true of Mages.

So yeah, it's about L2's pace of things. Mana regen is abysmally slow even out of combat, so "exiting combat to regen a bit" usually means death of your party or completely meaningless amount of regen.

Like, breaks between pve pulls are usually a few minutes, if the pull depletes all your mana (usually the case on lower lvls during aoe mage farming).

So in my experience I cannot recall a single player who'd just go "ay dudes, I gotta regen my mana, so yall keep fighting at a number disadvantage while I sit on my ass for 5 minutes or so"

This is also the reason why I kept telling mag that I want pvp to completely use up your resources, in that resurrection thread. I'm used to pvps going not only till you run out of mana, but sometimes even beyond that, if the dps from either side dips below the rare party heal from the healers (a rare occurrence, but still).

And this is also why I want deep, extensive and complex mana gameplay between all archetypes. And I want the same in pve, which would bring both closer together class-balance-wise.