10-15 SECONDS TTK

Yeah, and WAY FASTER in group situations. It's gonna be a bloodbath. I personally highly dislike it.

Given current design direction, I am tentatively going to say this is fine, actually.

A certain set of recent changes to the way damage is calculated, and the information from the weapon trees, tells me this can work.

I also however absolutely support everyone who feels strongly negative about this. I'm just saying that from my perspective and the overall flow of the game, it would have been extremely hard to make the TTK they said originally, work.

EDIT: Also Rangers need to just lose Snipe as an ability straight up if they want this.

As a fighting game player, this sits uneasy with me. I know things flow a little faster in MMOs, but I can't think of any round that ended at 79 or less on the timer than didn't feel thoroughly unsatisfying, and I worry that's what's going to happen here based on what he said. If even Tank vs Tank lasts 30 seconds, it's still concerning.

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This depends entirely on how you 'measure' TTK, though, the positional jockeying before the actual engagement is usually not counted.

If anything, the important thing here is the dynamics of battles where a character can 'use a long cooldown ability, then not be able to use it again before everyone in their team is down or the battle is lost'. This is what Steven basically said he wants to happen though.

Yes, this is a wildly different design direction than what anyone but probably Mag7 was thinking when they visualized Ashes combat, but it's not particularly bad.

Shoutouts to Mag7spy for the good call on that and holding the line against all of us dreaming up ways to get to some sort of 'revolutionary' modern 30s TTK. Keep going, king.

I'm actually really curious to see how they'll manage to implement Bard in a game with a such a short TTK. In some games it takes almost that long to cast a single buff. I can't imagine being told that I might not even have time for one song before a battle's nearly over, but if Bards don't have a meaningful casting time, what does that look like? Narbash only really has one buff, so he isn't a great example. I'm quite curious to see how the team intends to make Bards effective without relegating us entirely to 'buffbot' status, or rewriting the archetype into something else entirely.

SongRune wrote: »

I'm actually really curious to see how they'll manage to implement Bard in a game with a such a short TTK. In some games it takes almost that long to cast a single buff. I can't imagine being told that I might not even have time for one song before a battle's nearly over, but if Bards don't have a meaningful casting time, what does that look like? Narbash only really has one buff, so he isn't a great example. I'm quite curious to see how the team intends to make Bards effective without relegating us entirely to 'buffbot' status, or rewriting the archetype into something else entirely.

You gotta be a little clearer about these things around these parts, y'know.

No one would be expecting a game where it takes 6s or more to cast a buff. I know what you mean by this (assessment + decision + positioning + cast time) but to others it will just sound like hyperbole.

I don't think the team generally wants the Bard to be the one 'dealing with' the focus fire aspect of battle, if anything, your part would be to assess based on the guaranteed demise of whoever gets focused. That's going to be an interesting skill check for bards with the cooldowns we've been seeing.

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30 is for the tankier classes fighting each other. DPS would be even faster, and party v party will create 1s ttk, because assist-kills exist.

NiKr wrote: »

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30 is for the tankier classes fighting each other. DPS would be even faster, and party v party will create 1s ttk, because assist-kills exist.

Party vs Party does not automatically create low TTK scenarios, this is not true in TL, it is not true in good MOBAs, it is basically only true in weak MMORPGs (I'm sorta counting New World here too, yes) and Korean MMOs that have mistuned CC.

Now, I'm not arguing against anyone who currently sees Ashes through the lens of 'it's a Korean-like MMO with mistuned CC' because it certainly do be like that tho...

But it's kind of like 'Korean WoW' at this point in terms of design 'flair' (I can't say 'ethos' because we still don't know enough to know and will not know until Rogue releases at minimum).

I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s.

The main issue would be if the target audience of Ashes have the skill to play in that design space. (based on my recent 'smurfing' in Pred, no, they probably do not, but that doesn't mean the top players need to slog).

If we get certain things, we're going full ArcheAge.

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Azherae wrote: »

I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s.

The question to both of you would be this then: do you count ttk from the start of the attackers' animation or from the existence of any enemy effect on the target?

Cause we saw in the caravan showcase that a few rangers using snipe together just wiped a dude. Snipe is a long cast, so one might say it was a non-1-second ttk, but to me I don't care what my enemy does for howeverlong before he hits me, but if I die within a 1sec of a hit - imo that's a 1s ttk.

Defensive buffs would presumably get counterbalanced by offensive ones, unless Intrepid go out of their way to add long-lasting strong def buffs that MAKE the ttk last longer.

In any other case, a well-prepped group with a rogue that has full stealth can wipe an enemy cleric in under a second. I'll be glad if I'm wrong, but right now I'm not seeing a way where I could be wrong tbh.

NiKr wrote: »

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Azherae wrote: »

I can only say that there are many reasonable designs in which TTK of 10s between two averagely balanced parties (i.e. only 1 or 2 duplicates of Primary Archetype in the party) does not lead to anyone getting actually burst down in under 5s.

The question to both of you would be this then: do you count ttk from the start of the attackers' animation or from the existence of any enemy effect on the target?

Cause we saw in the caravan showcase that a few rangers using snipe together just wiped a dude. Snipe is a long cast, so one might say it was a non-1-second ttk, but to me I don't care what my enemy does for howeverlong before he hits me, but if I die within a 1sec of a hit - imo that's a 1s ttk.

Defensive buffs would presumably get counterbalanced by offensive ones, unless Intrepid go out of their way to add long-lasting strong def buffs that MAKE the ttk last longer.

In any other case, a well-prepped group with a rogue that has full stealth can wipe an enemy cleric in under a second. I'll be glad if I'm wrong, but right now I'm not seeing a way where I could be wrong tbh.

It's admittedly difficult to explain, but note that I, at least, and I expect Mag, are not saying 'what they have right now will fit what they say they want'.

If anything I'd say their demos have been explicitly terrible for showing off anything TTK related, as much as some people find the whole ranger burstdown appealing or funny.

All I'm saying is that there are multiple designs which can exist where anyone reasonably expecting any PvP, should have abilities/gear that prevents the majority of sub-4s TTK situations. The 'issue' is, again, the execution skill level required to play in those designs, because they are Fighting Game tier (technically higher than most modern ones, but not all).

Also, we still have to factor the most meaningful effect on TTK, Accuracy Vs Evasion. No matter what you do, statistically, JUST the fact that Fighter's Maim skill could theoretically just nat1 the enemy Cleric, means that TTK can go up.

If 10s is what happens between two full-assault DPS, it's almost certainly because both built as much Acc as they need to kill the average player, and nearly no meaningful Evasion.

Evasion builds in BDO can reach 27s TTK (more like time to finally die).

BDO.

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Technically neither of these is good, in my opinion.

But it's also a moot point, there's no way for Steven to give a reasonable answer regarding their interaction targets in something like an AMA, that would take multiple videos just to get even the start of understanding.

Ok this was funnier than I thought.

Probably because it's a Berserker doing it. First 2 minutes.

Just imagine this, but on me as Cleric, and some of the CC parts are working so I can't necessarily get heals off until enough CC DR builds up.



But still not dying super fast.

Azherae wrote: »

But still not dying super fast.

It's still wild to me that BDO uses evasion/accuracy stats. Isn't the entire point of an action system that you don't need to rely on those? Crazy stuff

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

But still not dying super fast.

It's still wild to me that BDO uses evasion/accuracy stats. Isn't the entire point of an action system that you don't need to rely on those? Crazy stuff

The gaming world is truly full of all sorts of design ideals.

Also, as Mag has told you many times before, BDO is not particularly 'Action', you mostly can just 'point in the general conal direction of your enemy and the right thing will probably happen.

It's honestly more generous than some parts of TL at the higher levels of play, so the Evasion stat is there to make up for that and bring it closer to what Mag has described and what players like Dygz would want if they were 'Action Combat' fans.

Anyways, the point there is, you need a lot of experience, understanding, examples, etc, and most importantly game context, to know what '10-30s TTK' means.



If you watch this whole clip and then had to tell someone TL's TTK, you'd have to say '4-40 seconds' or something equally unhelpful. This is why I care so much more about the details of what they show, than the number given.

But, again, I agree that what they've shown doesn't look good yet. It's just not simple enough to take as a whole if you have faith like Mag does.