10-15 SECONDS TTK

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This is a strawman. I don't think you meant to do it, it's probably just a misunderstanding, but it represents a position convenient to argue against, rather than what my actual position is.

To put it very simply, where did I say anything about not being able to kill people?

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Seems like you're still coping that the game will be exactly how YOU think it'll be, rather than any other way.

Steven, at this point, has stated several times that AoC's ttk will be on the faster side. This means that this is Intrepid's plan for the game's balancing and design. And to me this means that all defensive abilities will give you as much protection as one would need to die within the ttk described by Steven in that answer.

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As I've stated before, my issue here is that short ttk means easy assist-kills in group pvp. You seem to be fine with that judging by this

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So there's not much else I can say here.

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Ok, finally, so you agree that the average ttk will be low. Got it. Great

Why in the everliving hell would I care about some uberpro who can dodge better than Neo did in Matrix? Steven said "average ttk will be lower than in other games", he then doubled down and said it'll be 10s for dps and then says "that's the intent", which means they are balancing the game that way.

You say "I see and listen what they do/say and then base my opinion on that", but you literally go against Steven's words here. And also, the "30s for tanks/heals" seems to even be in the context of "heal vs heal" or "tank vs tank" (though this would probably be the most arguable point here).

Like, we can all dream to be this dude and turn a 0.1 ttk into a damn win
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzS96auqau0
But only a select few will be at that level. And I couldn't give fewer shits about what the do/think about the ttk, because I'm talking about average gameplay situations with average people in average gear. And those people will have *snap*ped real quick by any even slightly stronger attacker, because of how low the average ttk is planned to be in Ashes.

Steven believes that this low ttk will somehow beat zergs, but, as YOU YOURSELF LITERALLY SAID IN THE PAST - nowadays zerg is not a dumb huge ball of lowskill players and is instead a collection of hardcore way-above-average career-gamers who will wipe the game with good coordination.

And your all-so-hated zerg will reign supreme, in part, due to the lower ttk, because higher-skilled smaller groups simply wouldn't be able to withstand an aoe barage from 20 people at once and would just drop dead.

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Which is precisely the average experience and will be the average gameplay with a low ttk. If you watched the L2 oly video I linked you can see that against some enemies it literally took 2-3 hits to kill them, which will be the experience in Ashes as well. Except in that video it was an OEd to all hell OP character vs weaker people, while Steven is talking about the same speed ON AVERAGE.

I know we're all super coolhakahz on this forum, but the average player is in fact an F1 spammer who'll complain and leave if the enemy can super easily out-F1 him. And I know that all yall uberpros will say "well fuck em" and I would definitely agree with that, except that the game needs those fuckers to give Intrepid money.

And all the uberpros need those F1ers, so that they can fed their egos and feel good about themselves. The main counterargument for longer ttk has been "it's boring", which to me sounds more like "I want to dominate weaker people faster, because that makes me feel better than them". Except, as Mag says, this would be the case even if the ttk is longer, simply because a good player will outplay a worse player and will decrease the ttk in a major way.

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That's L2 lingo for "people who only use one skill (or autoattack) and don't know anything else".

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NiKr wrote: »

In that quote above Steven explains, dps kill each other faster, while others kill each other slower, but average is ~10 for "faster" and ~30 for "slower". To me that phrasing implies not a "the target doesn't do shit" test.

edit to add: I'm mainly taking that implication because otherwise healers and tanks dying THREE TIMES as slow would imply that their hp/def values are fucking three times higher than that of dps (if it was a "target doesn't do shit' test) and I sure as hell hope that is not the case, especially considering how both cleric and tank were considered kinda OP in A1 cause one could both heal and do dmg, while the other was a CC machine that still did ok dps.

So them just standing around and STILL dying in 30s instead of 10s would imply that if were they do use their skills - they'd be literally unbeatable.

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I have never been in that scene and have always said that I'm a shitty player who simply has enough time and dumb stubbornness to overcome challenges.

And this is exactly why I'm talking about average players who play at the same lvl as me or slightly above/below, and why I couldn't care less about good or great players, because they're the minority in all games.

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Longer ttk serves this exact purpose. Shorter ttk will simply mean that any average player dies to a better player in literal seconds, w/o even a chance to improve. At which point all the average players leave.

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10-15 seconds is what Steven named as "average dps vs dps". In a "stronger dps vs weaker dps" it will most likely be way shorter ttk with a huge disparity in skill.

I'd compare this to someone sniping you from somewhere you didn't even look at vs someone headshotting you after doing a quick zig-zag towards you to dodge your own shots. In the first situation - you've learned nothing, because there was no time/ability to even learn from the experience. In the second situation you see what the opponent did and could then try applying the same methods in your own gameplay.

This would of course be false if gear power scaling is off the damn charts and a person barely above you in gear progression can wipe the floor with you - but we both don't know if that is the case and it would also be a completely different kind of discussion if that were the case.

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If we're talking about pvp (as in, both players are flagged) - getting away shouldn't be easy, because CCs exist. Yes, everyone will have at least some form of CC break, but I'd hope that is not a 0CD spammable ability.

Dmg classes would only feel weak if you compare them to dmg classes from other games rather than to other classes in Ashes. That's like comparing a boxer to a dude with a gun and saying that the boxer is super weak, because he can't do dmg to another person as quickly.

If we instead compare a boxer to a kickboxer or to other martial artist (i.e. comparing something within the same type/class of said thing) - we'd have a variety of choices that are not too far away from each other, but which still differ in their speed/intensity of applying dmg.

As for healing classes being unkillable - mana. Mana gameplay should be deep and intricate. Every class will use mana, so every class should have some interaction with the enemy's mana. And healer's ttk should account for their mana pool's ability to restore their hp. The same could apply to tank's defensive ability costs, so that the tank doesn't remain impenetrable forever.

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And seeing that knowledge being put to proper use could be a learning process in itself (for the weaker player that is)

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Except that non-shooter games are way more complex in their gameplay mechanics. You can't quite "spray and pray" in a non-shooter game and think you'll beat a better player that way.

This kinda goes back to the fighting games context we've seen in this thread. Two bad players can each find their "cheese" and beat each other with it, because they don't really know how to deal with either. But a good player will simply use that cheese against them. In a shooter you can just point to a thing and hold lmb, and there'd already be a chance to win.

And so, unless we get super simplistic combat in Ashes (which already seems to not be the case) - we ain't getting a "spray and pray" chances to win here.

Ooh, I know what would quell most of my worries here. A tank defensive party buff (say, 5min duration) that scales off the amount of sources of dmg taken by an ally, within a period of time (say, 5s).

So if the attacking party is hitting your healer all together - the defensive buff gives its strongest protection, which directly decreases the ttk of the target. But this still leaves the possibility of rogue sneak attacks or ranger crits from afar.

If a plain buff is viewed as too op for this kind of effect - I'd be totally ok with a "formation"-type deal. So smth like "everyone who's behind the tank in a wide and long cone aoe has this effect on them". This would make tanks move in a certain way around their party, limit their movements in pvp (unless the party is secure in some other way) and would also add more pvp interaction for "forced movement" abilities like the tank's Grapple.

In other words, a different kind of Aegis effect.