Combat Discussion

@Dygz - I was able to observe your movement and such, if you want, we'll invite you next test if we see you, so that you can test in a party as well.

However, be aware that it's not much better. Quickly targeting teammates by clicking on the left HUD positions is fiddly at the moment, and the muscle memory for it doesn't work well in conjunction with healing anyone not in party or properly retargeting for attacks after.

That first test on Norlan, the ability to target allied forces and enemies the same way was a bug, I think. It just treated everyone outside your own party as targetable. I could tab target through both enemy and allied units outside my party, but not tab target my own party. After a fix, I lost the ability to target allied in the same way, I think. I'll test it next time. If one of my group sees you, we'll invite you if you want and you can test it too (will be Norlan Defence again, by default)

@maouw - I am going so far as to assume that all abilities will have different viable angles/arcs when Tab Targeted, and that they will be smaller than the current 90 degrees, to allow for mobility to matter. This is also why I expect that there will have to be a full discussion about stat effects on the Sticky Reticle, but as you have seen from the other thread, that's going about as well as it usually does.

I'll hope that the next Development Update shows us some more Combat Revamp, not sure what else they have to show, still, since almost all their current work (edit: That we know about) has been bugfixing and server side. If it does, we can really double down or change the direction of this discussion according to what they did.

Stephen assured us that the Devs constantly monitor all our feedback, so I have no reason to assume it won't help. That's like, the core principle of Ashes development, and breaking that promise would be a far bigger indicator than any specific thing right or wrong with the combat.

I totally understand, as a developer, not trying to throw the Combat Revamp in on top of everything else while testing Siege and bugfixing. If it were my team, I doubt you'd be playing it until July, but if it was far enough along, I'd definitely show it off for this month's stream, so, fingers crossed.

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It can be very important to have things that are simple enough. While it can be very interesting for theorycrafters to have difficult choices, it can be off-putting to new players to have to rely on technical players and guides just to know how to make certain choices.

So in this case, there's some benefit for people being able to easily identify the 'standard' or 'cookie cutter' build.

Most other possible passives would be much more work to design, and balance, but above all else, to understand for the average player.

So I expect it will just be moreso the equivalent of a game where you always get things like 'Mages have a Magic Attack Bonus', except that it's optional for the few players who somehow come up with some other build, or have something that works better in their guild or group.

Overall, don't expect much from Passives, I feel. 'Interesting' ones wouldn't pass the last 'relatability test'.

Update from the Norlan Siege test for those who track changes through this thread.

I wasn't giving feedback on these for a while since I assumed the Devs didn't need any, as they were already doing revamps. This time there was a specific request in server chat so I assume that's changed.

I like it less now that the 'novelty' has worn off.

My group (1 other cleric, 2 tanks, 1 mage, yesterday - the other tank and mages couldn't play) likes it less.

To preface this, performance isn't an issue. It's smooth, it's mostly responsive, and for the most part, we were more effective than ever, to the point of it being possibly unfair. But that's part of why we don't like it.

This isn't about the backend changes from yesterday and I hope that's what they were asking about, in which case, the above is the answer. Smooth, performant.

The actual feel of combat itself is 'unpleasant' in specific ways that are design related overall though, and I just didn't want to say anything before. Players with even slightly less skill or awareness get completely dominated (my tanks K/D was like 24-3 at one point and she just started charging into literal groups of enemies and cutting them down). It takes 3 people to kill me if I'm trying to stay out of their melee range and that's just basic healing and outmaneuver since my opponents have so few options once I read their play. Note what I said. It isn't that I should be benefitting because of my tactics. It's that I know that my opponents have no options so I can employ 'cheaper' tactics.

Some of this is secondhand from my group because I don't even bother to use autoattack in sieges, it's not beneficial to me, I'd need a wand for it to matter, and I probably wouldn't do it then either. I thought for a bit that it was a matter of healing being too strong so I did a 1v1 against someone who didn't take me by surprise. Went as expected. They won out, because I didn't run away and tried to actually fight, but it still ended up being about the same feeling.

This isn't actually meant as criticism, this is a report so that people know that based on what most people in this specific thread have been requesting, it isn't there yet, and we probably shouldn't pile on what is there, and should just wait instead.

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@Karatos - I've played TERA and am familiar with Darkfall now through posters in the thread. I'll look into Conquerors Blade. If you have time, please give some feedback on the Compilation somewhere in the last few pages of this thread. If you don't see it, I'll probably need to make a new post for this page containing it, for simplicity.

Thanks very much, got it all.

I think that we could benefit from some sort of 'highlight' on the enemy that is currently targeted with the Sticky Reticle, and this function could remove the need for 'standard tab target' somewhat. Last considerations were related to the complexity of doing this in really large combat situations like Sieges.

Otherwise it doesn't sound like you would have any serious complaints about the Compilation, and the latest updates to the Combat system in the Alpha-1 Preview are starting to implement certain mechanics for mouse-over and reticle stuff which will be close to what you're saying.

More data compiled from multiple recent instances of testing, mentioning to give some parameters that others can use for their own, in the upcoming weekend.

We went to check out the boss shown on the June Development Update footage in action, and see how combat would feel against something of that precise size. Think of the enemy as a sort of Cleric with moves that you could call "Dark Judgement" and "Unholy Ground" and so on.

The enemy can be done with the current combat system, but subjectively speaking it is not 'fun' because the player's mobility is still too low at current. Nothing surprising there. Getting out of its AoE is rough. Healing others right after is okay, but efficiently healing multiple in quick succession, also rough. Basically, the various mechanics mean that with the movement as it is now, it can become too hard to maintain focus on what the enemy is doing and on the enemy/adds/allies.

In Action Mode, the complexity... I want to say 'rises'? Because of how one targets allies. The Allies in question must move and react to the enemy's attacks, but you must also manage to heal or buff them while they are moving, while also moving.

None of this is directly too bad, the main issue is the 'lack of a way to put distance between you and the situation in order to get a proper perspective quickly enough to do it'. Right now, Tab Target is a good 'compromise'/'cover up' for this 'issue'.

Others who want to replicate this test for feedback purposes can find 'Jermaine, Torment of Illwind' up in that Node, past the Alchemist's house, to the east. Might need to do it after a Siege attempt so that you're leveled enough. Should be doable with four people fairly easily, but I'm judging this from the perspective of a group with 2 Clerics.

Note that the latest build seems to have a proper cap on total Skill Points available, which will make it harder since the Cleric must pick and choose, but overall healing options are strong enough.

I'm particularly interested in any feedback from Mages on 'targeting' vs 'making sure the Clerics have enough mana', especially with Action Mode active.

More data, less from the Siege test itself and more from the giant free-for-all that followed it (trying to crash the server but it stood strong against us).

Got a lot more 1v1s, since I'm the only one of my group around for this test. Balance seems ok (except Weapon Throw maybe but I'm not sure), but movement is still painful, partially because autoattacks aren't worth the damage, and can pull you so close to targets that your abilities give the 'Outside Ability Arc' message. Mages can backpedal while attacking and this causes them to be able to 'slide to the side' which causes issues on the current advancing Basic attack.

As usual, 'wasted' way too many dodge rolls on just sideways movement, and 'lost track of opponents' that managed to move slightly to the side during Basic Attack and not trigger the collision (using Sword). This also causes a loss of ability to land things on the Ability Arc if trying to do them right after, but if you spin the Camera, even if you spin it fast enough, the opponent might be slightly to the side on the next Basic Attack and cause the whole thing again.

Siege Healing was same as always. Action Mode prioritizes enemies, loses track of allies if they are slightly out of your path, and the change I think they made or planned to make might not be working yet (pressing a key to focus on someone you happened to sweep your camera over). I need more data on this because it could easily have been me, but in a big battle, even 'reacting to seeing the right name and pressing either that or the heal' is a little hard.

As usual, just an update, moreso than a complaint set, for those who track what's changing, through this thread.

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That tends to come second in sequence, because they have to decide how fast and how far players are allowed to move, before they can decide it for enemies. If Raptors in this game tried to sidestep or circle you right now (Monster Hunter players can imagine just Jagras or similar small enemies), the forward moving attack problems would cause you to get hurt more. In fact, this even happens a little bit with some of the enemies now, depending on their pathing.

They would definitely be more challenging if they didn't run straight at you, but then player characters other than Mages would have to use more focus and skills to do anything to them.

I'm not saying that's bad, at all, just that generally, you would have to pin down the player's movement first.

With the current Compilation, Raptors circling would be fine, Spiders leaping over your head would be fine, and Griffons might start to get more potential since you could let them use swooping attacks, but with the Combat build that the Alpha Preview is testing, these might be more frustrating.

I guess technically two weeks isn't actually 'a long time ago', it just feels that way when the forums have generated 7 pages of posts since the last time this thread got touched.

The last topic in general discussion was the abilities of enemies, and with the new Free Motion combat, we come to a point of discussion that isn't directly covered in other threads, so...

What exactly do players expect to happen when they circle an enemy using Free Motion?

I expect that the enemy ignores my position almost entirely. I don't expect to dodge their melee attacks. I don't expect to dodge their non-telegraphed conal attacks. I don't even expect to dodge the telegraphed conal attacks if the cone is wide and ping to the server is not so great.

My assumption for Free Motion is that it won't result in dodging anything of importance in PvE and I'm used to this, games generally either 'make it so the enemy hits regardless', 'rapidly changes their turning and facing direction', or 'makes their attack cone hitbox so stupidly large that if you're not effectively behind them, you're out of luck'.

Balancing an Open World MMO game where you can 'free motion strafe out of your opponent's attack cone in PvE while attacking' with any consistency is borderline ridiculous with older technology. Note the specifics of that claim. You can strafe, you can attack, but making players able to do both goes down a whole rabbit-hole of other problems and requirements.

I've already seen people complain that in Action Combat mode, moving to the side of the enemy's attack doesn't prevent them from taking damage, so we know that someone out there expects to be able to do this. What's your expectation?

(Edit: forgot to note, for my group's members on the forums, for 'legacy reasons', our group lock is still in effect for this thread)

I'm not arguing for one side or another at this point. I'm asking because I've seen people who specifically complained that 'strafing does not dodge attacks in PvE'.

So there may be people out there who assume or hope that once Free Motion is available, they will become able to strafe to the side of a Spider or Crab and therefore evade damage. It doesn't sound like this ability is important to you?

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I actually find this really interesting. Would you have mostly the same perspective for PvP? I mean, that the player will probably be hit if they are within, let's say, the entire 180 degrees semicircle in front of their opponent, and movement is just a general feeling of freedom and ability-counter, moreso than a 'close range combat thing'.

I was under the impression (probably wrongly) that PvP players specifically wanted to be able to move around and it make a meaningful difference in PvP, even for basic weapon usage, but if that's not a concern for you either, than I can easily see why it doesn't matter to you.

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I'm genuinely sorry that it's coming off that way. Assume for the moment that I don't care at all about root motion. All I want to know right now is 'if people expect Free Motion to allow them to dodge mob attacks by strafing around them'.

Not 'want', which you clarified. "Expect". I believe I understand that you would 'want' to, but don't 'expect' to, in PvE. Similarly, my PvP question can be boiled down to the same thing.

"Do you expect that strafing will get you out of an melee attack cone in PvP?"

Edit: Clarified that I meant a melee attack cone.