Try to limit the amount of braindead and anti-fun CC that is stuns. There are better alternatives.

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Post by Azherae on 2021-08-09 00:06:26

Good gameplay is subjective though.

And that's fine, it's pretty clear that around 25% of players are going to ditch this game when the gameplay is properly defined.

The big question is if the other 50-75% will be 'correct enough' about what makes a successful MMO, for the game to not just fade like so many others.

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Post by Azherae on 2021-08-09 09:36:18

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This depends heavily on the game. "Percentage chance of failing a non-movement action". "Percentage chance of failing a movement action". "Ability to move but locked from abilities". "Can use ability that normally allows movement during ability, but prevents movement when paralyzed".

Do y'all want another BDO? A game where the meta is so based around this that they had to limit how much CC Resistance you could even build, and as a result of that, anyone who doesn't have it in certain matchups literally can't do anything?

Most will just go 'no, I am sure they can balance it'.

Consider that it isn't 'all these MMOs that try to balance it just have developers that don't know what they're doing' or 'all these players just suck and don't know how to properly build characters'.

Because BDO devs definitely ignore 'casual' players on matters of PvP. Those players, by nature of the game, are just not even relevant to most balance considerations. And the meta in BDO as of two streams ago was indicated to be 'people just build basically max Knockdown resist and it invalidates certain classes that use Knockdown'.

And in the end, after all that, because it is 'chance', it's random whether or not you win or lose any given engagement that relies on CC or CC resistance.

You know why games like BDO end up like that? Arguments like this. Just 'sitting around the table in the developer's conference room' instead of on a forum between players.

And you know how we know this? They admitted it, reluctantly. That when they get balance change requests from the community, those requests contain more detail and understanding of game mechanics than some of the devs themselves have, despite their efforts.

BDO's problems stem almost entirely from legacy stuff that they needed to take out, which combines poorly, and the current developer lead is slogging his way through literally months of surgically cutting out entire chunks of discordant ideas to make a better game.

If Ashes isn't going to be balanced for 1v1, any stun longer than 0.2- 0.3 seconds is a problem. Even with CC diminish. Even with CC diminish after one stun. Unless you want only that stun and basically no other CC, which is fine too, and then you still can't go over 0.5 seconds.

It's literally not worth the devs' time to add even one full Stun and then spend probably months 'fighting off ways players exploit it to instakill enemies'. Let the CC be 'naturally countered by the choices available to the class' and not some RNG that then has to also be tuned. At least then when the inevitable 'it's your fault, git gud' responses to people who complain, happen, the responders might actually be right and the community won't devolve into a 'Developers caved to the casuals and nerfed Thing I Like/Relied On' and the emergent toxicity of that.

You should never want a highly polarized view of your MMO.based on its by the moment mechanics. Industry has had 20 years to learn this.

Post by JamesSunderland on 2021-08-09 12:49:58

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Post by Azherae on 2021-08-09 13:22:05

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This was such a predictable answer.

"Ashes is a different game."

That's not how that works. Two DECADES. We KNOW that's not how that works.

Player A has 2000 HP, Enemy A has CC, Enemy B has a 700 damage spell, enemy C has a 600 damage Sniper shot.

If Enemy A has Stun as their CC, Player A cannot do anything about an incoming 1300 damage. If the trio is even slightly coordinated, Enemy A is already lining up their own attack to finish this.

If you say 'well other group members should do something', they have 1.2 seconds in Ashes because the game is fast and dynamic and that 700 damage spell casts in less time than that. Even if they also have Stun.

Contrast this with any other CC. Even Sleep would let Player A mash some instacast defensive skill like a maniac and hope that Enemy B and C are out of sync a little. Root would let player A at least 'throw out big damage or an Ability-Prevention CC of their own to stop one of the two'. Any CC that locked abilities but didn't lock Mobility and they can at least try to get out of the spell.

If you have to combine 2 different CC, the response time of the other team increases because there are now two people not doing damage immediately, and maybe they can do something.

Stop defending the least balance-able form of CC in gaming because nostalgia or whatever. Stun was described as a 'standard' mechanic called 'you skip a turn'. Guess what? All those games where 'you skip a turn' are garbage. Over 50% of them die or get relegated to the casual/tryhard dichotomy pile. That analogy wasn't even applied to MMOs, which is amazing since frankly every other game where 'your opponent skips a turn' also has it as an incredibly unbalanced move in which both players just try to reach that point first.

I'm not here writing essays about this and complaining because I care about Stuns themselves. I am doing it because I'm exactly the sort of optimizer that calculates every possible advantage in games like this and uses it to wreck metas. And I don't like games where the meta is easy to do that to. I want a game where it is finally actually impossible to.

This is a common thing in MMOs. When your 'crazy optimizer min-maxers' warn you that you are about to do something that will make things devolve into trash, you listen to them because they are the ones that will ruin it if you don't. If not me, then one like me. It happens in WoW, it happens in TERA, it happens in nearly every game that has enough of a meta to talk about.

If your answer is 'well I'm sure there will be a counter to this', just remember how nearly no MMO is balanced well enough, and how many people with literal 16 page number crunched spreadsheets tabulating dozens of hours of testing data, post on forums.

I'm that person. I'm telling you that you can either ditch stuns, or get another messed up MMO where the players who aren't crippled by the system tell everyone else that they should just 'get better' or 'develop new strategies' or 'improve their team comp'.

Never works. Min-maxers are always ahead of that. If there was a better comp, or more than one meaningful counter, they'd be playing something else.

The difference between me and them is that most of them want to abuse everyone else, or at least don't care, so they have no reason to stand up to this and ask for their own power to be removed. Or they get shouted down like this and decide that everyone else just likes being abused so they should just lean into it.

I am the monster people make me into, at times like this, so I'm gonna bow out before I 'turn' again, because I want to believe that people care more about proper results than their nostalgic ego-tripping, but the most likely response is gonna be that I'm the one ego tripping, so whatever.

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