Mob/Boss Combat Interaction (plus a compromise for hybrid combat)

For the unfamiliar. Key elements of Rathalos as an opponent...

1. Breathes fireballs.
2. Charge-tramples you, but doesn't actually like staying on the ground much.
3. Big tail swing, can be poisonous
4. Hopping talon/claw attack, can be poisonous
5. Diving talon/claw attack, can be poisonous, can grab you
6. Diving charge attack.
7. Can obviously also just bite at you

Mechanics that are common when fighting monsters that one 'should' expect to be translated over from Monster Hunter, that players initiate or aim for:

1. The monster can be flinched by damage, usually to the head (a separate hurtbox)
2. The monster can be knocked over by damage to the feet (another separate hurtbox)
3. The monster can be brought down from flying using a flash attack (as long as it is facing the flash)
4. The monster can be staggered by enough damage to the tail eventually cutting it off (another separate hurtbox)

A Tab Target game could do some stuff here, certainly better than the long telegraphs it has, to be interesting. An Action Combat game... well, we know what that does, but an Action Combat MMO would probably not do it the same, because in Monster Hunter your goal is to never be hit, and that doesn't fit well into Action Combat MMOs because the enemy has to therefore hit really hard whenever it does.

But we're talking about Hybrid, which can get to the 50-50 mark, once you start considering the hitboxes and hurtboxes.

The formula is simple enough when converted to an MMO. The enemy's initial attack has a smaller windup, a big swing and attack arc, and a relatively long recovery. If you defend correctly, you get a chance to hit the opponent afterward. Certain attacks cause stagger if you don't block or dodge them, so that your chance to hit the opponent is much smaller. The result would be that you take damage, but not too much, and you get worn down because you're not doing much damage yourself. You know that if you do better you will get to do more damage, and if you do worse, you will die (healer's mana will run out, defensive abilities will have to be wasted early and not be there for big attacks, etc).

With just this, you could design a Rathalos fight in Ashes that played in Hybrid, was interesting, wasn't disproportionately about 'Tab Mechanics' or 'Action Mechanics', and was 16-player content. All without even caring about specifics of combos, light or heavy attacks, etc. (I'd write out the whole thing, but it would have all the intricacies in it, and be another long 'design document', so, uh... I'll break it up across posts as we discuss it)

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Thanks @Ugoogee , this is the perfect primer for anyone who hasn't had all of the game experiences or doesn't know the games being referenced.

It also lets us skip some parts of discussion.

Things that could be added to Tab Target to make it more like Action without upsetting much:
Active Block
Dodge/Block followed by positional/status reaction to the situation
Some facing requirements, and/or strict-ish distance requirements on abilities

Things that could be added to Action Combat to make it more Tab without upsetting much:
Soft lock/Sticky Reticle targeting
Timing based strategy and 'more situations where the player is expected to take some damage'
Stat dependent Evasion and Accuracy that is assistive/secondary to the player's skill

People may not like these on principle, but we know these can be done because they've been done before in multiple games. Ashes can have all these. Ashes already has some.

If we apply just these to our 'Rathalos'...

Assume a 16 man encounter, 2x of each Archetype (actual full classes vary and we may discuss multiple options). For convenience we'll imagine that one group plays Tab Target mainly/only and the other plays in Action mode mainly/only.

One tank stands in front of the monster, another under its body near the feet. The TT Ranger stands near/behind the front tank, the AC Ranger is off to the left side. Other positions don't matter as much for now, just the positions of these four are enough to explain this part, though you can also go ahead and assume that the Rogues are both behind the monster.

The Tanks intend to keep the monster from using its charge attack to run off. To keep it still, like one would in most Tab Target games. When 'Feet Tank' has its attention, it uses poison talon strikes on them, the Healer handles this. When 'Face Tank' has its attention, it uses fireballs or bites.

Face Tank can block, or even sidestep dodge the Fireball sometimes (Free Motion vs Rooted Motion doesn't matter here, the width of the fireball AoE is tuned to whatever, no ground telegraph is required if the fireball isn't super hard hitting, you'll learn it fast since it is focused on Face Tank). Then quickly get back into position so the rangers don't have to move, but either can. AC Ranger has a good shot at the head hurtbox whenever Fireball is happening. TT Ranger gets to shoot at 'head' only when it bites and for a short time when Fireball is done, since the projectile still travels even if Tab Target is on, so head would have to be 'down', but they can shoot more often and just help with damage.

Since they are a TT player, this is fine with them. AC Ranger probably doesn't mind 'not moving' either, because they're constantly adjusting their aim for where the head is (let's assume their chance of Blind Shot working goes up if they hit the head).

Face Tank can interrupt the Fireball outright instead, if they want to, by Action Targeting the head when it rears up to 'inhale' with Javelin, reducing total damage done and coordinating with TT Ranger's Blind Shot, especially if AC Ranger missed somehow. So sometimes the action aspect of their play isn't 'Move out of the way' of Fireball, it's 'Respond'. TT Ranger doesn't need to be told this. If Fireball is happening and Face Tank isn't dodging, it's probably because they're going to Javelin.

If Javelin misses, they take damage, and lose hate, and it somehow goes to AC Ranger, the monster will either try to Fireball over there, or use a running charge, maybe dependent on distance. AC Ranger could 'notice that FaceTank got hit and run closer to prevent the charge, but it might charge anyway. Assuming they 'do it right' and it goes for Fireball instead, they just dodge that to buy time for some other tank interaction. FaceTank missed their Javelin so they can't try to interrupt this Fireball, so now they have to get it back on them (we'll assume they were using Spear to let them stand further away from the body to do this all in the first place).

In the basic moment to moment stuff, whenever the Tank correctly blocks a bite, or a talon attack, the monster stays in a vulnerable position long enough for a few attacks. In either system a 'melee combo' is available. WASD Root Motion allows them to do these things from further away due to having a lunge, but that's easily achieved by higher natural ground mobility, e.g. Neverwinter (more ground mobility means that the AoE for the fireball has to be bigger, though).

If the Rogues do enough damage to get the attention instead, the monster doesn't necessarily turn around, immediately, it just readies a tail swing which they can dodge. Either Tank can respond by using an ability for threat to prevent it from turning after the Tail Swing, or the Rogues can take the damage and use their own 'drop some threat' ability, depending on their flow and the healers.

This is what I think of when I think 'mob behaviour' in Ashes, and this is 'the absolute basic mechanics of this battle before actual interesting things start to happen'.

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Bias or not, there's no need to defend it or critique it, really. We're not trying to use it to declare something that must be. Your response of 'just play the game type that suits you', I will assume was at the video's creator.

Ashes said Hybrid was a thing, people got interested, now we're discussing what would be acceptable to all.

So, since no one is trying to hold anyone hostage here, wanna add the "Mage" part of a boss fight for us?

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I understand your name a lot better now...

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We have not received permission from Ugoogee to share the quoted post.

Unfortunately because it's so over the top, it's likely to get a pretty negative reaction. Ashes literally can't work if it's like that. Almost every aspect of it is tuned wrong relative to any of Ashes' goals.

(it's actually really useful that you let us know that you haven't played many MMOs, because it lets me know what parts to highlight, and might help others to understand that certain things aren't 'assumed shared knowledge').

The note in the previous video is that Action MMOs can become 90% dashing 10% actual fighting, pretty fast. And it would be a really hard sell on most people who want to be able to play Tab, for this to be appealing, because of some other aspects of gameplay it changes. Specifically, it's an 'encounter leniency' problem.

If the enemy can only hit a good player 20% of the time, then they have to hit 5x as hard than they would have to hit if they could hit 100% of the time, for the game to be equally challenging. That's a massive jump. In a Tab Target MMO you can balance this by making Rogues evade 80% of attacks, and a Tank have around 80% damage reduction relative to what a Rogue would have, but in a Hybrid one you have to do more work. It's not hard work, necessarily, it's just 'more'.

In a Hybrid game, the player has to get hit. Some part of the encounter has to be tuned so that even if you are good at the execution, you still take some damage when the enemy's focus is on you. The benefit of blocking or dodging correctly has to be 'damage reduction' or 'avoiding a status that lowers your damage output'. In the case of our 'Rathalos', for example, correctly dodging or blocking a Tail Swipe would prevent 'being staggered by a knockback effect'. The knockback part lessens one's damage output somewhat. But the idea would be that most of the time, the swipe still hits you if you're just using some 'basic, commonly available evade' (i.e. not the Dodge roll, but any sidestep)

The primary 'way to prevent losing damage from DDs getting hit' is... the Tank. It's hitting the Tank, not you, so you're not being staggered or having to back off due to poison ticking down your health or being set on fire when you're not the one wearing fire resistance. If this isn't the dynamic, you didn't need the Tank, and that's not how Ashes works.

This means that the 'base' I gave before isn't enough to be interesting to the Rogues. They just 'get into position, do damage, and try not to do so much damage when the Tank is having trouble that the enemy turns'. In an open world PvP game, they might have other things to do, driving off other players or similar, but that's not the part we care about. The enemy has to give the Rogue some reason to care, to be there, to 'do their job and be a Rogue'.

If the Cleric comes under attack, though, this is where they have to move, to put down Smokebomb or whatever they have that outright lessens the Cleric's threat or makes the enemy less likely to attack them. And this means they have to be looking that way, or possibly moving that way (if a distance requirement is in place). Then getting back into position to restart the attack.

The thing is, all of these things are 'things that happen in Tab Target games'. Action movement and Targeting just help out with the feeling, and with the 'closing back in and doing your combo (both definitions of that word work here) at the right time'. Reactive stuff breaks up any 'rotation'. The AC Rogue might be able to re-target the tail more easily with some leaping stab ability and end up exactly where they want to, doing slightly more damage. The TT Rogue can just tab target the enemy and use the ability, ending up somewhere closer to its feet, then moving back into position, and can therefore make the decision to do this with a lot less consideration.

By the nature of a 'holy Trinity' game, it just can't be as 'high octane' as Vindictus, but the 'having to react' part can be built in, using the style that Tab Target games do. Putting it into the enemy encounter structure.