Protecting Our Casuals: Gear

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So does it come down to how the game is advertised or represented in marketing, then? I too, think of those games (even the ones I described, let's assume you pay for extra inventory like BDO - where it isn't permanent) as sub games with F2P options.

I don't personally have a definition of 'true F2P' yet, and don't have much faith in games that have them, but that brings me back to the question. Let's parallel.

If a game doesn't tell you that in order to reach 'general content enjoyment' you must play 15h a week on average, and anything below that is effectively their equivalent of 'F2P' tier and you should temper your expectations accordingly, then while obviously time is not part of P2W, would it be 'bad' in your mind for players to be brought into buying the game without being told this?

I can say that I actually DO view it as equivalent here. If a game advertises itself as 'Free to Play' and then I have to spend $15 a month to not be fodder or to get an average level of access to the content, then I've been 'cheated'. Technically LESS cheated than a game that advertises itself as 'fun and engaging' without mentioning the 'effectiveness starts at 60h a month', and then charges me a '$40 box cost'.

Ashes implies that it will offer lots of fun to casuals, but IF (hypothetically entirely) you're only able to participate in the bare minimum of the features due to PvP constantly disrupting it and you don't have time to catch up in gear to compete in this PvP, then I can see how casual players of a particular type will feel cheated. The 'Play to Win' vs 'Pay to Win' terminology isn't important to me here as the intent.

Ashes hasn't even defined 'casual' itself so I've been assuming that they are using what I understand to be the 'industry standard', but they could also just be thinking 'well there's some little stuff that you can do, you're casual so you don't care about all this other content' will be okay for people.

That would make it the equivalent of one of those games I consider to 'cheat' me, as a casual player. I'd get all invested, expecting to eventually be able to function in the content the game talks about, and then find that unless I can find more time than I have, I can't actually experience it other than as someone's punching bag.

Coming from fighting games, which routinely OUTRIGHT DIE due to this exact dynamic, there's some semi valid concerns here (yes this has all been a long buildup to Defining the Aggrieved Party).

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Yeah, around here we only work in REAL numbers, like 'how many times you've actually practiced that combo because of your extra 2 hours a day to practice'.

What's that you say? You know how to counter that combo but would need to practice more time than you have so you would like the counter to be easier to execute so that my 2 hours of practice can be invalidated with a correctly timed/mashed button press?

(this has been the debate in the FGC for the last... 6 years I think. It's about the same here, may I offer you the wisdom of Sunbro...)

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You're creating a situation where that is the argument that would be made. I am not necessarily surprised that you don't see that, but I AM surprised that you misunderstood the point quite as much as you did.

In an MMO, the artificial number is higher because I am better than you OR I have more time than you, or both. The purpose of the artificial number is to do what the game system is not usually doing, and 'give me my advantage that I earned by being better than you or having more time than you'.

You say you don't want the gear equalized, but the counterargument being made is that the gap you want is too small to represent the thing gear is 'supposed' to represent in MMOs. You say you aren't complaining about levels, or Augments, either.

It takes 270 hours to hit max level in this game as of last info... you do know that, right?

Casual players have way bigger issues than gear, by that metric. I suppose I can't assume your intention there though since you still haven't given us your definition of Hardcore and Casuals. If you're accepting mine, your point is moot already.

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I really should clarify that I'm trying to help you here, at least in the sense of getting to a point where you don't get ignored or stonewalled.

You don't need to define it to me, nor to developers, but you DO need to define it to other players who keep, as you put it, misinterpreting your wish or intent.

If you said 'Casual is 2h a day and Hardcore is 4h a day and I don't want 2h players to be stomped by 4h players', maybe someone could have a discussion with you instead of assuming. But if someone perceives 'Hardcore' as '8h a day' and Casual as 'plays 2h about 3x a week', you will get the reactions you are getting.

Do you want to have a discussion or just complain about how other people don't understand you?

Nope, still wrong, because if I'm a hardcore economic player but only average at PvP, with my 'winning personality' here I'm better off spending the benefits of my economics skills on gear that outclasses the gear of the average PvP player so that I can beat them if they attack me, with my own average PvP skills.

See how that works? I didn't have time to practice PvP, I was too busy playing the Economy game. Then I needed to buy gear that was good enough to beat people who have the same amount of time to practice PvP as I do, but don't bother with the Economy game.

Or what will happen, if you follow, is that people who spend their time in PvP rather than in Economy will always be higher in PvP skill than me, and my gear probably won't help enough.

(for the sake of this post, ignore my Incredible Natural Talent at PvP)

(this post was prepared in advance based on behaviour model so that I could post it from phone without having to do all that, ignore any parts where the predictive model failed)

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I can only say one thing with regard to your giving casual players a lot of credit. Personal opinion -> advice, of course.

Don't.

We have not received permission from VmanGman to share the quoted post.

I finally understand your problem and can disengage.

You're a PvP elitist who doesn't want other focuses to be able to stand up to or trump practicing PvP skill by conversion into gear. Good luck.